Nice Churchy Patriarchy with Liz Cooledge Jenkins

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[00:00:25] It's time for another round of Snarky Faith with your host, Stuart Delony. This is a space where we are reverently wrestle through life, culture and spirituality all without heads in the clouds, our tongues and our cheeks, our hearts and our sleeves and our feet on the ground.

[00:00:42] At Snarky Faith, the questions or even the answers are never the point, it's all about the conversation. So here's your host, Stuart Delony. Welcome back to Snarky Faith, I'm Stuart Delony, your guide. Through the wilderness of spiritually disenfranchised radio.

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[00:01:38] Previously on Snarky Faith, I think it is you, the women who have had the most diabolical lies told to you. How many of you are sitting here now about to cross this stage and are thinking about all the promotions and titles you're going to get in your career?

[00:01:53] Some of you may go on to lead successful careers in the world, but I would venture to guess that the majority of you are most excited about your marriage and the children you will bring into this world.

[00:02:04] Oh, nothing like a little misogyny within Christianity to get you going in the morning. Welcome to SnarkyFaith and that was Harrison Butker sharing some pearls of wisdom that will be delving into today.

[00:02:21] Not specifically what he said because we know what he said and what he said was misogynistic and it tells us that the patriarchy is alive and well within Christianity.

[00:02:35] And today we are going to be sitting down with Liz Coolidge Jenkins, the author of nice church patriarchy to be able to talk about this problem that continues to go on. I know it's 2024. What are you talking about? Misogynie and the church patriarchy huh? Yep, don't believe me.

[00:02:55] Let's have a little bit of the best of the worst. And Joyce's cuts of Christian nuts. That's right, we're going to have some Christian crazy patriarchy addition. Here we go. I'm using the love and the love and the love and the love and the love.

[00:03:09] I want to be right. Hello, members. The Lord is my shepherd. He knows I won't. Fair warning. It's going to get worse before it gets better, but that's what we do here in the Christian crazy.

[00:03:26] Exposing the worst Christianity hamps for us. First up, let's listen here to Pastor Joel Webin as he gives up the game on Christian nationalism. Let's say you can wave your Christian nationalist wand. We wake up tomorrow in a Christian nation. A Christian nationalist nation as you're describing.

[00:03:48] All right. There's a lot of fears that people have. Here's one of them. We'll women have the right to vote tomorrow. If you wave that magic Christian wand. No. Okay, why not? I want to get into why not. Yeah, that's great.

[00:04:02] Because we had a Christian nation tomorrow and women did have the right to vote. We would not have a Christian nation within 50 years. Okay, elaborate a little bit on that. Because there has a spin has been appointed by God as the head of his home.

[00:04:19] And no fault divorce and women's suffrage more than anything else ultimately split the household. I'm not quite sure if this is the moment where I either need to say, Q hand-made tale theme song is their theme song.

[00:04:36] Just now thinking of what would like the 80s version of a hand-made tale theme song be in the beginning. Okay, sorry. No, I digress. Should I be rolling? Should I be rolling?

[00:04:48] The theme song to hand-made tale right now or should I really just be sitting down and saying, hey everybody, we need to check your pulse because I'm worried about how much your blood pressure is boiling after hearing things like this.

[00:05:02] And I love examples of folks like this because they're totally giving up the game. What is he saying? Oh, when we give women power and we've given women a voice that's when society goes down the crapper. What? Huh?

[00:05:24] Okay, but this is exactly why we have to oppose things like Christian nationalism because they devalue everybody that's not a white male. And I say, that is a white male. Now, I could give Pastor Joel Webin the benefit of the doubt here. Maybe he missedpoke, he didn't.

[00:05:47] But you know, I think we should look into a little deeper into this kind of nationalistic thinking from what the same pastor, and it's going to give us a peak into how they view scripture and how it gets very horny and phallic really, really, really, really quick.

[00:06:09] If we had a Christian nation and women could vote, then within 50 years we would no longer have a Christian nation that got has not designed women for warfare. And as part of what politics is, it's really all that politics is. It's war without the blood.

[00:06:24] And I believe that the sword has been given to men. The sword is without being crude. I think this is a fact. It is a palace. It is assigned by God to men.

[00:06:33] I think nature shows that. I think scripture shows that. So both natural revelation and special revelation. War is something that is belonging to men and it's not something that we employ in our ranks, whether it be political war or whether it be literal war women and children.

[00:06:48] So in the same way, you know, like, and people that's that's so archaic. You're in the end of thall. You're so, you know, primitive and showvenistic. You won't let women vote. Well, our society doesn't let five year old vote.

[00:07:00] Yet I pray that it, you know, that stays that way, but we don't let children. We don't let children vote. And it's not just because of competency, you know, because that would be the immediate counters.

[00:07:12] But their brain isn't fully developed. And so are you saying that a woman is like a child? Yes, but not intellectually. I'm not saying that.

[00:07:19] The question is how and what ways a woman like a child. She is like a child in the way that God is appointed men to protect them. Ask me about my winner. So if we're exageting this correctly in his frame of mind and ideology, God gave men,

[00:07:40] penises so they could be dicks to everybody. Is that kind of what I'm hearing? That sounds like what I'm hearing because he's definitely being a dick here. I don't even barely know where to start. Essentially the women are like children. They can't fully think for themselves and, and

[00:08:00] penises, penises, penises are the only answer. Yeah, yeah, Jesus, what a dick. Now I know you may also be saying, Stuart, come on. This is just one cock hungry, Christian nationalists. Maybe the rest aren't like this. Maybe this isn't what conservative Christian men think like.

[00:08:26] Well, then let me give you a second opinion here. From Pastor Doug Wilson saying pretty much the exact same thing in pretty much the exact same derogatory and misogynistic language.

[00:08:41] When women were granted the right to vote, the nation had already accepted the lie that a nation has not been more than a collection of individuals. And so the matter was framed this way men as individuals can vote. So why cannot individual women do the same?

[00:08:54] So, we thought we were giving the franchise to women when we were in fact taking it away from families. When women were granted the right to vote, the nation had already accepted the lie that a nation has not been more than a collection of individuals.

[00:09:06] And so the matter was framed this way. Oh, anyone else really think Kennedy had just a shower to wash the muck off after hearing that?

[00:09:15] Yeah, it's gross. And yeah, it's easy to be able to point out and say, hey, you conservative Christian men, look at what you're doing. And we can probably do that all day long. But you know what's even more insidious.

[00:09:30] Believe we've talked about trad wives on here in the past. Yeah, yeah, it's Christian women echoing the same ethic. Right? Isn't that kind of just like shooting yourself in the foot kind of betraying other women?

[00:09:45] Apparently there's no sisterhood in the traveling patriarchy. You want an example of it? Well, buckle up. We've got Isabella Moody talking to young Christian women about, you know, important stuff. I feel like to young women, ironically they need to find a man that's very, I'm so agnostic.

[00:10:07] If you and all of a have a guy that's going to like make you follow his frame and you need to find a strong Christian man that's going to put you in your place or else you're going to dominate the relationship.

[00:10:18] And when a woman dominates the relationship, it's destined for failure because I see even how I was different like in my previous relationship. I was dominating and I was such a bitch, like such a Jezebel.

[00:10:31] And you know, I wasn't always like a good wife or like this great, like a or even Christian, I used to be atheist but he has completely transformed who I am and how I act.

[00:10:41] Because he's such a strong Christian man and he doesn't let me get by on things. He always will nitpick everything because he's literally training me how to be a good Christian wife.

[00:10:51] You need to be trained women or bitches and they need to be trained, so that's my advice. Find a man that will train you. And as a father of two young women, I would have to say I agree 100%.

[00:11:03] And if you're believing what I'm saying right now, you're not realizing you're listening to a show called Snarky Faith. Oh my gosh, what a progressive take and that just leaks with self hatred and I don't even understand this mentality.

[00:11:22] It's sick but it's very pervasive with an American Christianity. I mean, heck, just ask the Southern Baptist churches that won't allow women to be pastors. Yeah, this is a problem that continues on.

[00:11:38] This is a problem that as much as we want to think that progress is pushing us in the right direction. We've been election in the fall that stands to push us back 50 100 years or more. Spitting in the face of progress, evolution and humanity moving towards a better place.

[00:12:02] Yeah, it's that scary and we need to be awake to all of this. This dub tale is perfectly into my conversation today where I will be sitting down with author Liz Coolidge Jenkins and we're going to be chatting about the church and patriarchy. Buckle up, here we go.

[00:12:24] With me today is Liz Coolidge Jenkins. Liz is a writer, preacher and former campus minister with degrees from Sanford University and Fuller Theological Seminary. Her first book, nice church patriarchy reclaiming women's humanity from evangelicalism is out now. So welcome welcome Liz.

[00:12:44] Thank you. Thanks so much. I'm glad to be here. No, no, one thing I think what we want to be doing today Liz is kind of talking through this turning the tables of patriarchy. But before I begin, I do have to ask you something.

[00:12:58] Did you make sure to have your husband's permission to be on this podcast in advance? Do you know, I never do anything without it anywhere ahead covering to symbolize his authority in my life.

[00:13:10] Oh my gosh, that makes me feel so much better. I was so worried like, you know, even though this is virtual space Billy Graham Rulin all I was like, oh no, but, but all seriousness this, I remember like 20 years ago my wife stumbling into the sajani and the church and then talking to me about it and then trying to figure out

[00:13:33] roles and place and it really, this is a book I wish we had 20 years ago. We found you could find bits of like pieces of stuff if you kind of clover them together from different books to help you back then but this is something that I think people need to read and I think it's something that's going to help folks, especially those that are still in the church.

[00:13:56] For you in your journey, because this book is part memoir and it's part book about the patriarchy and the problems that it causes. When did you, when did you first start to notice those like threads of of misogyny in the church?

[00:14:14] Yeah, I think for me it was a bit of a journey. It may be a longer journey than some might expect but I think I was really raised to believe that we're in kind of a post patriarchy world and I was raised in a church that didn't limit women's roles based on gender.

[00:14:33] That was kind of the world that I grew up in also in a pretty liberal part of the country and this yellow area, so I think that was part of it too.

[00:14:48] I was really in until college when I moved to a different state to go to college and had to find a different kind of church.

[00:14:55] It wasn't really until then that I kind of stumbled into a more conservative world and I'm working serve a church world and I really just stumbled into a church that actually placed a lot of restrictions on women in ministry and leadership, and I did not know that when I walked in right like they weren't advertising that front and center wasn't the first thing you find in their website.

[00:15:17] I was really in a lot of sex that they didn't even have like a super extensive website. It was pretty basic, but yeah that wasn't something that they're advertising but after really a year or two of being involved in that church I started to slowly pick up on some things and realize that there were not any women on the elder board, which was really the leadership board of the church being an international church kind of elder lead.

[00:15:43] I'm realizing that the fact that we didn't have women preaching very often really hardly ever was not coincidental it was intentional.

[00:15:53] I just kind of assumed that there happened to be mostly male preachers so yeah took a few years kind of starting in college to become aware of some of those things. I feel like once you started pulling on that thread it just kept going. Is that?

[00:16:08] Yeah, I mean I think it took a minute for me to even start pulling on it. I think I was a bit more conservative at that time and I never really fully bought into the patriarchal practices and structures and theologies but I also at the beginning of my time in that church

[00:16:26] I wasn't really strongly opposed to them. I think I kind of thought I see where they're getting this from the Bible. I also value the Bible highly. I think there's a lot that we agree on here and we can kind of agree to disagree on this thing.

[00:16:40] I have to ask this. This wasn't anything I planned but we talked earlier you mentioned Seattle again and you talk about church in misogyny did you ever have a taste of marked risk go back in these early days because he is like that is that is like yeah just chop him up and like just main line in there if you want misogyny like driscoll is the man.

[00:17:03] Right right kind of the most original child. Right totally you know I think that most of the time when he got really popular in the Seattle area I was living in California.

[00:17:15] I was in California from 2006 to 2019 so I think I kind of knew of him and knew of Mars Hill but I didn't personally know anyone who went there and I think it seemed far enough out there that I wasn't really taking it seriously.

[00:17:29] Even if maybe someone some people that I went to church with might have right. That's true. Dodgible. Dodgible. Praise the Lord. Okay. Amen. Amen.

[00:17:40] So when we talk about the patriarchy and misogyny in the church what are some of like the methods and mechanisms of reduction especially like women but also like when we talk about people of color members of the LGBTQ community.

[00:17:56] What are those like methods and mechanisms of reduction that are kind of built in to church structures. Yeah and that's a good question and I kind of want to preface it by talking a little bit about kind of the nice churchy patriarchy.

[00:18:12] You know focus of the book because I think that there are some very real very extreme very damaging mechanisms of reduction out there that I have not experienced and that the book does not focus on.

[00:18:26] So we're talking about some of the things that might seem a little more subtle or might kind of fly under the radar seem like they're okay.

[00:18:33] It may not surprise you that I think that they're not okay so I think we need to be talking about it just as we also need to be talking about those more extreme forms.

[00:18:42] So when I think of reduction when it comes to women in particular I'm thinking of objectification I'm thinking of all of the different kind of policies and practices that you get when men.

[00:18:55] men are in charge men have power right that's what patriarchy is men are setting policies and procedures and these men often have some kind of twisted views of women and sexuality.

[00:19:10] And it can be kind of this very objectifying reductive thing of speaking as women as objects or I can kind of take the flip side of that which is what I often experienced and reflect on more in the book.

[00:19:24] And of like this kind of male fear or anxiety around female sexuality that could lead to things like the Billy Graham rule.

[00:19:34] Which is really reductive is really limiting right yeah kind of assumes that women are out there to sexually tempt men and that they're cannot be professional relationships between men and women that are not sexual.

[00:19:50] And that's all really damaging it really damages especially young women's career prospects right because women need mentoring women even entering from people in the positions that they might want to inhabit someday.

[00:20:02] And if those positions are dominated by men that's one of the ways that they stay that way if those men aren't willing to invest in relationships with women professional relationships with women because of all of this reductive objective.

[00:20:16] And we talk about this one thing that you mentioned in the book and I will say this I don't I don't have an award to actually give you but I feel like you deserve some sort of an award but it'd be very like a small one because I'm not a very significant person in the world so.

[00:20:31] But but very because we I have lots of authors on and I have lots of books on theology and other stuff like this is not very often that I laugh out loud.

[00:20:41] When I'm reading the text and and some of this you may not know where I'm going with it, but and I want you to unpack this this that you've mentioned this the smoking hot wife syndrome and I laugh because I know I would say I knew but I know of a part of pastor that was like literally his like Facebook like banner.

[00:21:00] Like banner in it that you know I'm blah blah blah and preaching is my life and I also have a really hot wife and he's apparently really good at rhyming too but yeah and had a picture of his wife on it to this was for it was a church planner too.

[00:21:15] Yeah but I was like ah there's others out there and I didn't realize this was a bigger thing so what is the smoking hot wife syndrome.

[00:21:24] Yeah I didn't realize it was a bigger thing either when I first encountered it so yeah I told the story in the book of.

[00:21:31] I was on staff and with a college ministry organization and we had a guest speaker who kind of invited himself to speak at one of our large group fellowship meetings.

[00:21:45] Which is great right you know free free guest speaker and then he gets some you know a visibility for his new church plant that he was starting.

[00:21:55] And so yeah this guy kind of stands up in front of the room if maybe 50 or so college students who would come there to worship to fellowship to learn about God right and. This this guest speaker stands up and starts introducing himself.

[00:22:12] And he says something like I spent a lot of time as a youth pastor and you know as youth pastor you don't necessarily make a lot of money but God rewards you what other ways.

[00:22:23] And God like God gave me a smoking hot wife and he asked his wife who is in the audience to stand up and turn around and show everyone how smoking hot she was.

[00:22:34] And that yeah that's the kind of thing that you know I think at the time I had other things that were kind of on my mind as I was listening to him give the rest of his talk and.

[00:22:48] I actually didn't really register this smoking hot wife thing is absurdly inappropriate until another female colleague of mine brought it up later. Which point I was like oh yeah like that's what I'm like let's talk about that right like that assumption.

[00:23:04] That a wife is a man's reward for serving God as opposed to a person in her own right.

[00:23:11] The assumption that the most important thing about her is the way that she looks as opposed to anything else about her is a full human and full equal partner to him right.

[00:23:21] And yeah I had that idea of a reward that idea that is appropriate to ask her to stand up and turn around. It just to use that platform of being a speaker at a college fellowship in that way.

[00:23:35] So yeah it turns out that unfortunately he was not at all original. And saying that yeah that's kind of a trope and I kind of became more or the better the patriarchy is not very original. So I think I'm going to like it. Right.

[00:23:53] It's kind of a personal peak yes yeah and yet first time that you hear these things is shocking it's jarring yeah it definitely is now but on the flip side in fighting the patriarchy have you ever when you're speaking.

[00:24:06] You're talking about a smoking hot husband in stance where you're just like honey honey. Stand up turn around show what you got give the congregation what they want right now because that's really what it sounds absurd when I'm saying this but essentially what they're doing it's.

[00:24:21] It's a little bit grossly also sounds very. Trumpy there I say I don't want to get into too far into that but like hey look at this gross.

[00:24:32] That's just really yeah and Trump is kind of an embodiment of some of the grossest most of our forms that patriarchy takes.

[00:24:41] Yeah and yeah I like that you turn that around and talk about the smoking hot husband because I think any time that you flip the genders on something as ridiculous that's a really good sign that we're dealing with with something misogynist something patriarchy.

[00:24:55] Now okay so this leads me which I did not intend to do this but it works you write about the need for new ways to describe God in feminine terms kind of flipping the script in that way and you suggest demasculating scripture as an approach.

[00:25:15] Talk to us about what that what that practice looks like or what does that idea kind of look like tease out. Yeah I think that the ways that we talk about scripture are really important when it comes to gender and gender equality.

[00:25:29] I think a lot of times you see sermons that focus almost exclusively on male characters in the Bible.

[00:25:36] And the female characters are there right they don't get as much airtime necessarily in the scriptures but that's all the more reason to really focus on them and really kind of draw them out and reflect on them and see what we can learn from them and their stories.

[00:25:51] The might not be obvious if we're only focusing on the male characters.

[00:25:56] So yeah when it comes to reading scripture I think it's important to look at the whole of scripture together in terms of you know what people think about scripture and gender they might think about these particular passages that seem really limiting toward women and really patriarchal.

[00:26:17] And yes those are there and there's different ways that we can think about them and at the same time there's a lot of examples in scripture women leading.

[00:26:26] Women ministering women serving preaching being apostles in ways that fly in the face of what those restrictive passages might seem at a first glance to say. So yeah I think when I think about demasculizing scripture thinking about seeing the women in scripture not ignoring them or overlooking them.

[00:26:47] Asking some of the questions of feminist biblical interpretation where are the women what are they doing.

[00:26:54] In what ways are they limited by their patriarchal society and what ways do they fly in the face of their patriarchal society and do things that would have been challenging to others around them.

[00:27:08] Yeah like what ways do we see them pushing back against gender norms and just kind of what can we learn from them how do we see them exercising agency and expressing their dignity is as humans.

[00:27:20] And in the stories where Jesus comes in right how do we see him a firmain and honoring that.

[00:27:26] Now you've been in around church culture a lot you've you've done preaching you've done all of this and I know the simple answers why the answers men but which I'm a part of and I am willing to fully shut on myself first things like this nature because things need to be fixed but.

[00:27:44] Why do you think that these stories like you're talking about in scripture that that you're pulling out they're there.

[00:27:51] But there these aren't things that are oftentimes focal points in preaching now is are we talking this is just like fragile mail ego preachers issue here or is this like a seminary thing or what yeah what do you think the deval use some of these stories and doesn't always bring them to the forefront.

[00:28:10] That's a good question yeah I mean I think there's a lot going on I think there's the fact that most preachers are still men it's still a very male dominated field even in more progressive denominations and churches that don't have any explicit limitations on women and leadership or preaching.

[00:28:28] So yeah I do think that when one subset of the population has had that dominant voice for so long there's things that they tend to notice and tend to focus on that can be different from what female preachers tend to notice and focus on and think is important.

[00:28:43] I think it's really important to get female preaching voices in there to get female seminary professor voices in there to get people reading stuff written by women in seminary right that was another thing that I can do in the book a little bit.

[00:28:58] even at an egalitarian seminary so many of our reading lists were so male dominated and it's not that men's perspectives aren't worth hearing right but a set they've been so dominant for so long that that shapes everything and I think it takes a really intentional effort to read women theologians, biblical scholars, preachers writers and kind of figure out how to balance things out of it.

[00:29:22] Do you think in a sense like with when we talk about like the faith streams that really hard embrace complementaryness and it seems like when they have that type of a posture it seems to.

[00:29:34] I don't know create really just toxic theology in other areas as well do have you seen that to be true. Yeah I would say so I mean I think one angle on that is that if there's this kind of controlling posture that one group is taking.

[00:29:54] They kind of feel like they have the right to lead and set policy for the whole church without necessarily bringing in and centering the perspectives of people who are most impacted by those policies.

[00:30:07] Yeah that creates all sorts of problems for women for queer folks often for people of color for leadership was quite dominated.

[00:30:15] I think that you know how much in this groups of people never make the best decisions right and you do get all sorts of problems when you don't have different kinds of perspectives in there and being valued.

[00:30:27] Now when talking about the the value of diverse theological perspectives and I think you're totally right and I love that you have that in the book too.

[00:30:38] How how would you encourage churches or or faith groups to begin to incorporate more diverse theological perspectives as part of practice as well. Yeah that's a great question.

[00:30:56] I mean I think it kind of depends you know where you are in the structure of your church and what kind of influence you have but I think there's all sorts of things all sorts of people can do.

[00:31:07] I was talking with someone recently who did a little bit of an inventory of all of the books that a book club at their church had read together.

[00:31:16] Progressive church for a person right like well-intentioned people who didn't necessarily mean for that book list to be super mailed dominated and yet this person went through and kind of you know did the math and found that it was.

[00:31:30] So yeah I think just kind of you know being more aware of things like that.

[00:31:36] Running some numbers on things like that and and really trying to be intentional about like if you're choosing a book for people at church to read who's the writer if you're choosing a scripture commentary to look at as a do a viable study who's the writer.

[00:31:51] If you're choosing stories or books of scripture to look at yeah who are they centering. Yeah and again again like representation in preaching representation in church leadership on elder boards all of that is huge too. Do you see that like shifting towards that that's a major.

[00:32:11] Host your change I think in a lot of churches to where you know we have the answer we know it our denomination has therefore had bylaws and rules and all this other just BS that somehow says what we believe.

[00:32:29] But it's a huge difference in posture for leadership to begin to say we need these different voices we we may not know it. I just betrayed I just betrayed all the men sorry but yes you know my perspective is not the entire perspective of everything.

[00:32:49] I know my listeners are sorry to hear that what it's true. But it is I mean in working with insistence you've worked within. I can often get very like defeatist after working in systems that I push back against.

[00:33:09] What what are ways that that you would say to push back into these systems that are just like this as we know this we know this but for folks that may be listening and saying we do want to perspective.

[00:33:22] How would you recommend them beginning to walk out change. Yeah that's a good question and I feel like a really complicated one because it's true different for different contexts and different people.

[00:33:35] And I wouldn't want to pacate on how to change your conservative church given that I have found a more progressive church where the values of life and it's pretty good.

[00:33:45] It's not perfect but at least we can talk about these things and generally kind of want to be moving in the same direction together.

[00:33:52] So I mean I do think that for a lot of people that is the best option not necessarily for everyone but for those who can and for those who feel like I just need to find somewhere where I.

[00:34:05] I feel like I can rest and be myself and not have to be pushing for change all the time. I think that's really valid and I want that for people.

[00:34:13] But for those who do feel called to stay in a situation that they want to change some things in. I mean I think yeah I think you know just starting some conversations and talking with other people.

[00:34:27] Even just to get a better sense of like what exactly are the issues in this particular community that we want to really push on and how can we do that together.

[00:34:36] Because I think people who disagree with their churches leadership or kind of come from a different perspective or want to see things change are often made to feel like you're the only one who has this problem.

[00:34:49] There must be kind of something that you just need to work through here when really you know often there are some real problems with churches policies and structures and theologies.

[00:34:59] And I think it's worth finding the people who are frustrated with that or who see things similarly and kind of working together to think and pray through what can we do in our context.

[00:35:11] And I think it also involves being willing to have to leave unfortunately because those efforts for change are often not received well. I think it's still worth trying right if people feel called to and they want to.

[00:35:23] But I think there also needs to be a willingness to you know be open to the possibility that it's not going to go well and we need to find a different kind of community which might be really hard at first but also might be really good in the long run.

[00:35:36] And I think that's not more to because I agree with you there is a you know there's a time to stay and there's a time to leave in different situations in life and and there's a certain power.

[00:35:47] To leaving these these systems and situations that that we're like these are not this is not good for me it's not good for other people and for me to remain here would meet me being less of me.

[00:36:02] I think that's more of leaving because you you've you've had instances to where you've had this is be like piece out people were I'm going to different places yeah.

[00:36:12] Yeah yeah I didn't get into that in the book a bit in terms of the first and really only time in my life that I've left left to church not just move somewhere else and had to find a new one.

[00:36:23] And yeah I reflect on how that was really powerful for me personally in terms of really like helping me understand more fully and more fully internalize that I have the agency to leave right like that's my choice.

[00:36:41] I have that power that that's really kind of like a God given agency to determine what is a reason good for me in a church community.

[00:36:51] And obviously like no church is perfect and there's always going to be some stuff that's hard and you can kind of work through.

[00:36:57] But I think some people use that kind of no church is perfect mindset to justify staying or justify wanting others to say in situations that are really at a very fundamental level not working for them.

[00:37:10] So yeah I think there's a lot of power in that just personally to realize that like I am free to go right like I don't owe these people anything other than kindness and love to the extent that I can right.

[00:37:23] But I don't owe them my presence and their gatherings, I don't owe them my service and their community right like I am free to go places that feel life giving.

[00:37:33] Yeah and then I think it's also powerful on a communal level of like you know church leaders may or may not listen to dissenting voices that bring up concerns to them.

[00:37:45] But they do want people to be in church and so I think when they see people leaving and see groups of people leaving especially or larger numbers of people leaving and when those people have the courage to articulate why they're leaving.

[00:38:00] I think that can sometimes make some church leaders reconsider things in a way that they might not have otherwise.

[00:38:07] And you talk about I love how you brought up agency again because that's so yeah I wanted to talk to you about what does it look like to reclaim your agency that was a great example of it as well.

[00:38:16] But in encouraging you in the book you encourage women to take ownership of their faith and take ownership of their own agency and can you speak to any moments like where that happened to you where you're just like, I have to do this.

[00:38:31] Yeah I think leaving that church was a big one. Was it?

[00:38:34] And I think writing this book was a big one too right because I think you know many people who've read it have commented on how nice I am to the people in the band in these very patriarchal stories and systems.

[00:38:49] In the sense that I wanted to make it really clear that these people are not villains that most of them are really well-intentioned people who are played into these systems that are really damaging.

[00:39:01] Where am I going with this? So yeah, I think that was a moment of realizing that I have agency to decide how I want to write about this.

[00:39:08] And then it's okay to write about these people and write these stories not because I'm trying to call out particular people. But because these stories are such great illustrations of what is happening in so many different faith communities.

[00:39:28] And I think they can help us understand what's going on and how to kind of pinpoint and think things and what needs to change.

[00:39:35] So yeah, I think that kind of writing the book was a moment of like reclaiming that agency of like these are my stories. I get to tell them I'm not going to tell them in unnecessarily unkind ways, but I'm going to tell them truthfully as I see it.

[00:39:47] Yeah. Now, how has this, how has this whole journey from like you realizing that there's something to miss I don't like this. This doesn't feel right. How has that changed your whole like spiritual walk in journey? That's a big question. It is only 30 seconds left. No, I'm joking.

[00:40:09] Share whatever you'd like to and how this is like yeah evolved in you. Yeah, yeah. I think this has been a really big part of my spiritual journey.

[00:40:18] And I think especially after I graduated from seminary and started coming to terms with just how male dominated my seminary education was. I really made an intentional effort to seek out women writers and just try to learn and see what I missed in those male dominated course readings.

[00:40:39] And I think that's that's been huge. I mean, all of that has been really forwarded for my faith journey to stop stop reading only books written by white men. As I did for so long and to see what other voices are out there and.

[00:40:57] Yeah, I think that's been really affirming. It's been really encouraging. It's there's been a lot of moments of like I really relate to that in a way that I'm not sure I would have related to some of these male authors that I've got all my life.

[00:41:11] Yeah, so a lot of moments of kind of feeling seen feeling like this is the spirituality that is centering me right like centering women and that's really different and really powerful.

[00:41:25] And then there's also moments I mean as a white woman trying to read a lot of stuff by women of color. There's also a lot of moments of like, oh that is a perspective. I really need to hear that I hadn't and it might be challenging.

[00:41:36] But it's also really good and really important. So there's kind of both sides of that it's been a good journey.

[00:41:43] Well in your journey too and you do you do this in the book, you begin to kind of dream in ways about what what a church could look like. That embraces equality and I know like every church in every different community will look a little bit different but.

[00:42:00] But yeah, like what is what is it church that. And it begins to walk away from this patriarchal system, this top-down system and moves towards something that embraces equality. Not just in congregation but in voice and thought and all these other what is that begin to look like.

[00:42:20] And I know that's not going to be specific but yeah broad strokes.

[00:42:25] Yeah, I mean I do think it's different for everyone as you say and it's it can be really messy especially if there's that transitional period like it wasn't this way but we're trying to make it this way.

[00:42:35] But broad strokes yeah I think it looks like men and women and people of all genders as well as people of all sorts of races and economic backgrounds and all the different things that make us up as humans all the different identities we have.

[00:42:48] Yeah, all those people learning how to share power how to share leadership together. So whether that looks like diverse older board in all sorts of ways or diverse set of preachers and pastors.

[00:43:02] Yeah I think all of that's really important at the church that I go to now we have an awesome female pastor and one of the things that she does is she shares the pulpit a ton.

[00:43:16] And she says she's a someone woman she shares the pulpit primarily with two friends of hers who are an African American man and a Korean American man.

[00:43:25] As well as other friends occasionally and I think having those different perspectives and different voices and just seeing the way that she like she preaches and she's graded it and she doesn't feel like she needs to be the one person preaching every week and telling us all what's to think every week.

[00:43:41] I think is really powerful so yeah shared leadership share leadership across diversity thoughtful leadership leadership that's not trying to be controlling but is trying to hear from everyone and take everyone's perspectives into account.

[00:43:55] Yeah love it I love it now now so I've got you just mentioned diverse voices and so my last questions can be easy or as difficult as you want to make that. So yeah Jesus.

[00:44:06] It's well the first one may be a little spicy you talked about different voices and I want your opinion on what is up with that conservative evangelical like women's baby voice do you know what I'm talking about.

[00:44:18] Katie Britt all these other you yes so what way I just want your opinion you don't have to judge anyone specifically but you're on a show called snarky faith and. What what do you think psychologically is behind that.

[00:44:32] So I'm going to take this opportunity to direct people to my sub stack where I wrote about us a little bit it's called growing into kinship and there's a recent post about exactly this. Yeah I am. I think that.

[00:44:48] Yeah I think that in our patriarchal society in general and often even more strongly in certain conservative Christian communities. Women are really strongly socialized to try to be done threatening to try to present in a appearance that's gentle, that's weak perhaps as a word for it.

[00:45:12] That kind of embodies all of these culturally constructed feminine things.

[00:45:19] Yeah that kind of kind of followed that category of like gentleness, nurturing, caring, super sweet so I think that that that voice can be part of that that women are socialized to project this kind of demeanor passive persona and the voices part of that.

[00:45:39] At the same time I feel like there's like a lot of caveats that are needed here because I think that in a misogynist world women's voices are criticized no matter how we talk right like just the fact that we are talking is a.

[00:45:54] You know not laughing because it's funny but what else are you going to do.

[00:45:57] But yeah so I think I want to be really careful about you know when I would say or criticize about other women's voices because I think that that criticism is a mechanism used to get women to be quiet and I don't want women to be quiet even if they're saying things that I disagree with they have the right to say those things and to not be criticized for it in really massaging this way is.

[00:46:18] Well put well put. So last two questions then I'll let you take on which one you want to do first and what is what is something in life right now that is that easy they're pissing you off. Or giving you hope. You still got to answer bro.

[00:46:36] You got to pick the order you got to pick the order. It's the only way you finish this. I know you. This is a last bit of the gauntlet.

[00:46:45] Where to start or to start I mean I feel like that easy pick for pissing me off would be the god bless the USA Bible.

[00:46:54] Oh I love it yes yes doesn't even have a concordance but it's got the constitution the bill of rights and the blah blah blah blah blah what. Exactly and the lyrics to god bless the USA.

[00:47:05] And the best version ever the KJV also because it's free for them to publish that's why they're doing that they will. There we go there it is. Yeah. Right so there's that I feel like that doesn't need like too much marks on action.

[00:47:22] Fair fair there so what's given you hope. Yeah. Oh wait wait I'm sorry did I mix those up wait the the the the Bible is what gave you hope that you were. Is that not sorry finished? Fuck if you. Yeah that's a no. I.

[00:47:42] Well I have been recently in joins some contemplative prayer times that have been led from a woman from my church and I also read about those a little bit in the sub stack. And I think that.

[00:47:56] The prompt that my new friend has come up with for these times have been just really thoughtful of that provoking and really centered on nature and how we hear from god and nature. And just yeah thinking about how nature might speak to us.

[00:48:13] I feel like that all sounds a little bit big but it's just been really good to sit for like half an hour outdoors even in the cold Seattle area spring.

[00:48:23] And contemplate and see you know what god might be up to or be kind of prompting there and I feel like that's felt hopeful in the sense of.

[00:48:34] So seeing how resilient the natural world can be even that in the midst of a climate crisis that is very bad and very urgent.

[00:48:44] There's still all these ways that life is flourishing and could still flourish especially if we take the right actions to try to you know prevent climate change from continuing. So I think that feels hopeful. So good outside in touch grass.

[00:49:01] As as long as we have grass so that's going to be beautiful. That's beautiful water as long as we have water. Yeah. Oh, sorry I just took that hopefulness and I made it sad. Sorry. But the but what's not sad is the book.

[00:49:18] Nice church patriarchy reclaiming women's humanity from evangelicalism by Liz Coolbridge Jenkins. I know I yeah I cool it not cool rich Coolidge. I keep thinking of Jennifer Kurdish and I keep going there it always yeah he goes to my mind Liz Coolidge chickens finally got his there.

[00:49:38] It's a wonderful read and Liz thank you for being on the show today. Thank you. Thank you so much. Much thanks to Liz for being a part of our show today and check out her book. It's on Amazon now it's a great read you won't regret it.

[00:49:56] Before I send you off just a reminder to share the show subscribe give Snarky pay they review over on Apple podcast it helps to get word out for listeners.

[00:50:05] But I want to thank you for being a part of this show week after week month after month year after year I appreciate all of you.

[00:50:13] And now as I release you out until the wild wide world I send you out with the holiest amount of grace and peace and snark. I'm out of here. Peace be with you.

[00:50:29] This choir cast podcast is brought to you by honoring the journey hosted by me Leslie Mies a former Christian radio host speaker and writer and

[00:51:02] Contestant on survivor China known as sister Christian since then I've been deconstructing my theological beliefs and honoring the journey offers you deep and meaningful conversations about all things faith and deconstruction. We also dive into different faith practices ideas and ways to connect with a divine without religious baggage.

[00:51:20] Subscribe to honoring the journey and let's honor someone's journey together today.