Finding Jesus with Herb Montgomery

[00:00:00] This Choircast podcast is brought to you by the Quantum Sayings of Jesus, decoding the lost Gospel of Thomas by Keith Giles, available now on Amazon in Kindle and paperback.

[00:00:13] Buried around 340 AD, unearthed in 1945 and translated into English in 1959, the Gospel of Thomas has been studied, debated, and analyzed by dozens of scholars and historians searching for clues about the meaning of these cryptic sayings of Jesus.

[00:00:28] In the Quantum Sayings of Jesus, author Keith Giles offers a look at the text from the perspective of non-duality and divine oneness. Check it out on Amazon today.

[00:00:37] It's time for another round of Snarky Faith with your host, Stuart Delony. This is a space where we irreverently wrestle through life, culture, and spirituality, all with our heads in the clouds, our tongues in our cheeks, our hearts in our sleeves, and our feet on the ground.

[00:00:57] At Snarky Faith, the questions or even the answers are never the point. It's all about the conversation. So here's your host, Stuart Delony.

[00:01:08] Welcome back to Snarky Faith. I'm Stuart Delony, your guide through the wilderness of spiritually disenfranchised radio.

[00:01:17] Had enough of the insanity and Christianity? Well, you've come to the right place. We're here on a quest for a sane, grounded faith that aims to make the world better in real, tangible ways.

[00:01:28] We're not afraid to call out the religious BS or to look for better pathways forward. If your conversations about faith require a heavy dose of sarcasm and even a bit of this, then welcome home.

[00:01:41] You can find this and all past episodes at snarkyfaith.com or wherever else you listen to podcasts. We're here, we're there, we're practically everywhere. Just look for Snarky Faith.

[00:01:55] Previously on Snarky Faith.

[00:01:57] I want to speak to those with hair loss right now. And I want to pray healing for you.

[00:02:02] I speak to that spirit of baldness and I command it to go in the name of Jesus Christ. All generational baldness, I command it to leave in the name of Jesus.

[00:02:12] Oh my lord! I can feel it. I can feel the follicles tingling. I feel something maybe on my head. What could it be? Oh, oh, oh. I have hair. I have hair again.

[00:02:26] Wait, I had hair before. I'm not quite sure how this worked, but it's a miracle. It's a miracle.

[00:02:34] Welcome. Welcome back again to Snarky Faith. We've been off for a couple weeks on hiatus and so I am excited to be back.

[00:02:43] Today we're going to be talking with Herb Montgomery about his book Finding Jesus. But before we get to that, we've got to catch up on what has been happening over these past couple of weeks.

[00:02:55] What has been going on? What's been going down? And this, this one, this is a little personal. I was going to share with you guys because we did this.

[00:03:06] I'm trying to think. This has probably been over a year ago. We had Rocky Rocio who was the producer of the upcoming film. It hadn't come out yet.

[00:03:15] 1946, the mistranslation that shifted culture. It's talking about mistranslations that happened in the Bible that led to the word homosexual being put in the text and how that changed things.

[00:03:28] And yes, yes, it's a great documentary. I enjoyed finally getting to watch it recently. And as I'm watching it, this happened. This happened.

[00:03:39] And I was like, oh, wait a second. Who is that? That guy sounds familiar. That guy sounds familiar. And yeah, yeah, they use this guy's voice.

[00:03:48] It pops up randomly towards the beginning of the documentary. You don't believe me? Well, here we go. Let me go ahead and let you listen for yourself.

[00:04:00] Today I'm sitting down with Rocky Rocio. She's the director behind the upcoming film 1946.

[00:04:15] Yep, yep, that was my claim to fame. That was all of it right there. That wasn't even a 20 seconds of fame. 15 seconds?

[00:04:24] I don't know how many seconds it's supposed to be a fame you're supposed to have, but either way that was my one second, two seconds of fame.

[00:04:32] So yes, yes, all shall kneel before me moving forward because I'm randomly used in a documentary. But either way, you should check it out.

[00:04:43] It's a great documentary. So here's what we're going to do in order for me to catch you up on some of the crazy that's been going on since we've been off the air.

[00:04:53] What better way to do it than the choice has got some Christian nuts. That's right. It's the Christian crazy.

[00:05:00] If loving the Lord is wrong, I don't want to be right.

[00:05:05] Lord, the Lord is my shepherd. He'd know what I want.

[00:05:12] Well, first off, you've all heard about it, but we need to talk about it.

[00:05:17] That's right. Let's hop in on the God bless the USA Bible, a combination of Trump's greasy grifting and pretty sure Lee Greenwood's a greasy grifter at this point in time as well too.

[00:05:33] Yeah, I think that checks out. But here's what the thing I love most about it. Here's what I love.

[00:05:38] And let's go ahead and hear about this from Trump just so we can unpack it.

[00:05:43] This Bible is the King James Version and also includes our founding father documents. Yes, the Constitution, which I'm fighting for every single day very hard to keep Americans protected.

[00:05:55] Also, the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence and the Pledge of Allegiance are all part of this. God bless the USA Bible.

[00:06:04] And it's just very important and very important to me. I want to have a lot of people have it. You have to have it for your heart, for your soul.

[00:06:11] Oh, you do. You have to have it for your heart and your soul. We need people to have this Bible because, you know, the traditional Bibles.

[00:06:19] What do we have in the end of them like an appendix, some maps, concordance, you know, those kind of thing. Right? Right.

[00:06:26] But no, no, we've got the founding documents from our country, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, because they totally wait. No, they don't.

[00:06:36] What the hell? What the fuck do they have anything to do with the Bible? I don't know. I don't know. But I also know that you're using the KJV Version.

[00:06:44] You know why? Because it's free. It's right. It's in the public domain. And so they're just making money off this greasy, nasty grift.

[00:06:53] But here is what I want you all to hear. Let's listen to Lee Greenwood for his reasons why you need this specific Bible and no other Bible.

[00:07:05] The reason we have this Bible is to make sure more people have an accessible. If you have this Bible today, you'll be able to actually find out how our country got started with those four documents and be able to read them.

[00:07:17] Because sometimes if you go to Washington D.C., those documents are under a glass and they're really hard to see. The last time I can remember actually reading them was in high school.

[00:07:25] So number one on this. So, okay, we need everybody to have this because everyone needs a Bible. What about the Gideons? They're off in the corner crying.

[00:07:35] Number two, I love, I love that Lee Greenwood's like, hey, hey, you know, this is pretty much like the only place you're going to be able to find these documents.

[00:07:45] Like other than, you know, driving all the way to D.C. and waiting in lines or looking over glass in order to read it because in the past, the only way you could read these documents was strictly through the glass.

[00:07:57] What? Like, you know, all of this stuff is readily available in your library online anywhere else? Yeah, yeah.

[00:08:11] Also speaking about obvious knowledge, our second bit of the Christian crazy today involves the Trans Day of Visibility.

[00:08:21] And this year it happened to fall on Easter and the Christians, well, they didn't seem to understand that the Trans Day of Visibility, guess what, has been around since 2009.

[00:08:40] And it was only a matter of time where, hey, roll the dice and maybe Easter because Easter moves around all the time. Easter happened to be on the exact same day and Christians lost their shit.

[00:08:57] Here's an example from the ramen shaman. That's right, Sean fuked selling his weird Christian nationalism BS as only he can do ramen style.

[00:09:10] Right when you think it can't get crazier and more perverted and demonic out there, the president of the United States tries to cancel Easter and Resurrection Sunday and replace it with Transgender Day of Visibility.

[00:09:24] You gotta love the fake outrage. You gotta love the fake outrage because it's just not true. It's just BS. It's just lies, which wait sounds a whole lot like Christian nationalism and the ramen shaman.

[00:09:37] So I guess that checks out. Okay, so we've made it through there now on to number three. Right? Anyone in America remember the bridge collapse in Baltimore?

[00:09:49] It was horrible. It was terrible. It was an accident, but leave it to Lance Wallinow to try to get weird prophetic about it. And yeah, yeah, it's in bad taste and it's weird as hell.

[00:10:02] But so is Lance.

[00:10:03] There is a silver lining to this. It could be that this could be the Lord warning us that the nation is in danger of collapsing its bridge to its noble past is being lost and that and that hacking might be the thing in the election that is the most dangerous about what takes place.

[00:10:28] The news blackout as the blackout on the ship.

[00:10:31] That is the recipe for any good conspiracy theory. You throw God's name into it. You throw some other words in you mix it up and try to find meaning out of a situation that is just a crappy situation. And it's terrible.

[00:10:46] People literally died.

[00:10:48] But no, Lance doesn't care about that doesn't even really care about reality because that's just not his brand. It doesn't work on it. You've got to somehow make it conspiratorily prophetic.

[00:11:01] And I guess maybe that's Lance's spiritual gift.

[00:11:06] Yeah, I don't think that's I don't think that's biblical.

[00:11:10] Maybe maybe not. I don't know.

[00:11:13] I don't know. So lastly in the Christian crazy. We've got what we've also been hearing for the past couple weeks. No, no, no, it's not about Tay Tay's new album. No, no tortured poets at all here.

[00:11:27] But I am going to talk about tortured profits. And man, you know, it's been difficult for the orange Messiah lately so many court cases so much going on but leave it to Hank Coonerman to spin bullshit like he only can spin bullshit because really, Trump is a prophet.

[00:11:55] Nay, Trump is almost like Elijah.

[00:12:02] Oh, I just think he is so mean. You know what? I realized something you know all of his tweets was nothing more than God speaking whether he knew it or not against an opposing kingdom and what they're trying to do.

[00:12:21] And you know what? If you think President Trump is bad, you would not like Elijah because he stood up in 1st Kings 18 said why are you caught between two opinions?

[00:12:29] Come on, bring me your bail worship. Put your bull down. Coal down fire. What do they do? They cut themselves. They bled right? No fire.

[00:12:40] And here's what he did. He goes Elijah, I'll behave myself but he mocked him. Okay, he wrote mean tweets.

[00:12:50] Oh, Elijah wrote mean tweets. No, that's not how you do this. If you want to get mocking and snarky people would just try to talk about things like this.

[00:13:07] Hank Coonaman, what are you in your 60s and you've got shoe polished black hair? Are you trying to just be like the bloated voice of Elvis still on the stage because you kind of try to dress tacky just like Elvis did before he died.

[00:13:23] And what are we doing here? What are you trying to prove? Oh, you're just throwing meat to your conspiratorial congregations.

[00:13:32] Are you accomplishing anything? No, this is on a Sunday morning sermon. What the hell does any of this have to do about edifying the people of God?

[00:13:41] Speaking about the words of Jesus, anything like that? No, no, no. You're talking about a greasy grifter. You know why? Because that greasy grifter is your God.

[00:13:52] Because you are also a greasy grifter, much in the same way, just less successful with it. See that would kind of be an adequate like snarky burn if you're kind of going for that kind of everything. I don't know. That's an example.

[00:14:06] And lastly, as we finish out the worst examples of what Christianity can be in today's society, my dear friends. This leads us to the point where we have arrived at the Christian cringe of the week. The apex, the worst or the best, but it's awful.

[00:14:30] Christian cringe. No, God, please, no, no.

[00:14:35] Well, to begin this last bit, this section of the Christian cringe, I will bring to you the immortal words of theologian Eminem, where he tells us this.

[00:14:50] And that's a message we deliver to little kids and expect them not to know what a woman's clitoris is. The seith, the real slim shady.

[00:15:03] And why do I bring up such an arcane text here, for example? Well, let's listen to Southern Baptist mega church pastor Joshua Howerton talk about something really cringy, something really misogynistic and something really that screaming.

[00:15:25] I don't know.

[00:15:26] Ask me about my.

[00:15:29] That's it. So let's see what Josh has to say.

[00:15:32] Let's see if you applaud this. Ladies, when you get to his wedding night, he's been planning this night his whole life.

[00:15:45] So what you need to do is stand where he tells you to stand where we he tells you to wear and do what he tells you to do. You're going to make him the happiest man in the world.

[00:15:54] Yeah, I have to you.

[00:15:56] Okay.

[00:15:58] For context sake, this is him actually speaking at a women's conference. So note the applause that's going on and the women that are like,

[00:16:06] I'm just meant to be submissive. I'm simply just a piece of chattel. I don't really even exist. The only way I could ever be in leadership is if I'm leading children and other silly stupid women.

[00:16:27] That's kind of the SBC's view of women and that weird, disgusting, misogynistic rant while getting laughter kind of just sounds like, Hey, you know what? Let's do some rape.

[00:16:46] I mean, I don't know how else you're going to say it. Ladies, stand where your husband wants you to stand do what he wants you to do because this is his wedding night.

[00:16:57] What about my wedding night? You don't matter. You're a woman.

[00:17:02] I mean, I don't know how this can't seem really bizarre, really weird, really rapey and also at a women's conference because you know there's no better way to tell a woman that she's empowered by God than to put her in her place and say,

[00:17:22] You're just God's gift to men as a lump of sexy meat for them to do whatever meatiness they want to because they're men and men like sex. That's just the way it works.

[00:17:38] Yeah, it's disgusting. It's gross. It's weird. It's misogynistic. It's just like rapey culture ish. It feels very much like I don't know the handmade stale and every other bit of what we could talk about is right wing fan fiction.

[00:18:01] But that's gross. And Josh Howard tin is a piece of shit, especially for trying to brag about crap like this because that what if any of this has to do with the words of Christ, right?

[00:18:18] And that's where we're in a place where we have this thing called the church and the church is supposed to be what we think of as a place. We're going to go learn to be more like, you know, Jesus, because his last name was Christ, and we're all called Christ ends.

[00:18:34] And that's just kind of how it works. That's right. That's like a Jesus factory, isn't it? No, it's not. It's not and crap like this shows us that it shows us that the church has lost its grip on who Christ is and what Christ preached.

[00:18:55] None of this has anything to do with it from the Christian crazy to the cringe. Any of this, this is just this is just really, really, really bad either like cosplay or like, is there such thing as like conspiratorial cosplay?

[00:19:09] Cos that's kind of what we have going here. I don't know. But guess what? We went through the bad stuff to get to the good stuff, right? We're like Andy do frame. We climbed through two miles of shit to get there. Well, my friend, you're ready to be rewarded because we're going to sit down now with Herb Montgomery and talk about his new book finding Jesus.

[00:19:33] What? Where did he go? How do we find him? Well, if you listen to folks in churches like we've heard before, especially in the Christian cringe and the Christian crazy, it kind of may lead you to a place where you're thinking that yeah, I think Jesus is lost.

[00:19:47] I think, I think, I think we need to put on an APB and try to figure out where the hell his teachings are in the church today. So buckle up. Let's talk about Herb Montgomery's new book finding Jesus with me today is Herb Montgomery.

[00:20:09] Herb is the director of renewed heart ministries. He's an author. He's an adult religious reeducator, which I love that term. He's also the host of Jesus for everyone podcast and today we're here to talk about his book finding Jesus a fundamentalist preacher discovers the socio political economic teachings of the

[00:20:30] Gospels. It's a great read. It dives deep into a lot of overlooked political dimensions of the Gospels and I love it. I love it. So welcome, Herb. Welcome. Thank you so much. It's such a it's a pleasure to be here with you today.

[00:20:44] And I'm really just looking forward to being reeducated. I guess is that how it goes? We're going to do that. And one thing. Oh my God, I swore I told you we were not going to have surprises.

[00:20:56] No, it's OK. And I just remember this one. This is not a trick. Also for those of you listening to her, which I did not realize we talked about this book, the Holy Troublemakers unconventional states on the on our show like a while back.

[00:21:12] And when I was doing my what is it? Appa research into your background. I discovered that yes, you are in it. And I was like, what?

[00:21:21] Danine is a dear friend. Look at this beautiful guy that is. I love it. I love it. So yes, the cartoon herb. The cartoon.

[00:21:31] I love it. But that does it speaks volumes to your journey and we're going to be unpacking that today in that book and also in finding Jesus.

[00:21:41] And I feel like your book is about you kind of having aha moments that kind of changed your life. So let's dive deep into your story. So how does a fundamentalist preacher.

[00:21:53] Become a guy who writes a book like this. Yeah, well, I mean that story is a long one. But the brief kind of cliff notes are I was I'd written a book back in 2009.

[00:22:06] And it was my story of discovering my father. I grew up in a split home and I was discovering that my dad was nothing like my as an adult.

[00:22:15] My dad was nothing like what my mother had painted him to be when I was a child.

[00:22:20] And what that led to was a deconstruction that maybe God and back then God was male, but you know that God was heavenly father who, you know, was very very different than what most of us have been told.

[00:22:36] And so I went through an experience with that and I wrote a book about it. And, you know, I was doing an interview one night right outside of Washington DC was second largest Christian radio station in the nation at that time.

[00:22:48] And man, it was such a successful interview. There were people their phone was ringing off the hook. We had great questions. The switchboard was all lit up on all the metrics.

[00:22:57] It was a successful, you know, interview. But I came back to my hotel room that night when my head hit the pillow, I just felt like, man, this is just so empty.

[00:23:06] I've you know, I've missed something something's something's something's off. And I couldn't put my finger on it but eventually that night led me to going back to the Gospels.

[00:23:18] And instead of trying to get into the head spent my entire theological career, trying to get inside of the headspace of this theologian or that theologian or this theologian, you know, what was their system of theology.

[00:23:29] I'd never given that privilege to the Jesus in the story at least in the in the Gospels. And so I went back, especially to the synoptic Gospels and what I found was that all of the topics that I was passionate about talking about as a Christian preacher.

[00:23:45] Jesus never brings up. And all of the things that Jesus does talk about I never brought up, I never talked about those things. And so there was a back before people called it deconstruction.

[00:23:59] You know, this was a journey of saying, OK, let's wipe this slate clean. And let's start with just the Gospels and see where that leads. And I had no idea what that was going to create.

[00:24:12] It's interesting as someone in ministry who's who's done a different but similar path of starting to take the words Jesus seriously.

[00:24:21] I'm curious, how did your audience? How did your congregation? How did they begin to respond as you started preaching and taking Jesus seriously?

[00:24:33] That is such an insightful question, man.

[00:24:36] No, really. So the first thing that I bumped into in the Gospels and everybody's journey is different. But for me, the first thing that I was challenged by was, you know, Jesus's teachings on nonviolence.

[00:24:50] And back then, my exposure to this was the typical privileged white evangelical straight preacher who male who's who's, you know, once again teaching that they oppressed should be nonviolent.

[00:25:04] You know, that that's that's where I was at that time. But nonetheless, you know, there is nonviolent teachings in the gospel.

[00:25:11] So I was I was at least trying to explore those and man, I had no idea that just the violent response Christians can have to nonviolence.

[00:25:25] I mean, God guns and country, right? And so I mean, I'm not I am not kidding.

[00:25:30] 80% of our financial support for renewed heart ministries fell off the map within a matter of weeks when I started preaching, you know, nonviolence and it wasn't past of nonviolence.

[00:25:42] It was, you know, Walter Winks, you know, turn the other cheek, you know, interpretation, it was all that stuff, but it was still nonviolence.

[00:25:49] And yeah, people had a hard time with it.

[00:25:52] That's insane to me that people are just kind of like we love this ministry, we support it. And as you speak of like the words of Jesus, yeah, that they're just like, No, what is this?

[00:26:02] What is what did you did you get? Like, are you a are you already were communist, a liberal hippie?

[00:26:08] What I got was we aren't Anabaptists.

[00:26:14] That's what I got. We aren't.

[00:26:17] We aren't there.

[00:26:18] They're saying, yeah, yeah, that's okay. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's their next thing that I stumbled on to was the economic teachings of Jesus and the Gospels and man if we lost support over nonviolence, talking about just not charity but justice to the poor.

[00:26:32] There went the rest of our support. All of our rich donors then started freaking out.

[00:26:37] That's when they started calling me communist and socialist.

[00:26:40] Okay.

[00:26:41] You know, the book of Acts, you know, each one according to their ability and each one according to their need. That's not the apostles. That's car marks.

[00:26:48] Yes, I've heard the exact same thing.

[00:26:51] What do you what do you mean? Like if we do all this, what are we just going to like all just sell our houses and go live in a van like a hippie?

[00:26:58] You know, those kind of stuff like that too. And I'm kind of like, but you know, it's kind of what Jesus said.

[00:27:07] That argument doesn't work though with Christians.

[00:27:11] How absurd is that? That you're right.

[00:27:14] But you're 100% right. It's happened to me time and time again. I'll make these arguments and like, yeah, but I don't know about that.

[00:27:21] Right.

[00:27:23] It seems pretty black and white in the text.

[00:27:26] Yeah.

[00:27:27] Oh, I literally had once when I was a youth pastor at a large church and had preached about it was the parable of the sheep.

[00:27:36] Like we're, you know, we're going out to find the one afterwards.

[00:27:40] The pastor's wife corners me and she's like, I just disagree with what you were saying.

[00:27:45] And I'm like, which part?

[00:27:48] Like the terrible reading the sermon.

[00:27:51] Yeah, it's a parable.

[00:27:53] And yeah, but I don't know. I don't really like how yeah, how you were talking about it.

[00:27:57] You mean like in the way he said it.

[00:27:59] Yeah, it's not that comfortable.

[00:28:01] And I'm just kind of like, oh, if that's a sign for me to leave, I should have paid attention to it.

[00:28:08] No, but so how did that shape and shift what you guys did with renewed hearts after you started preaching this and we started to get nervous?

[00:28:22] You know, should we should be moving in this direction?

[00:28:25] And long story short, just to you know, spoiler alert, we had to rebuild renewed heart ministries from the ground up.

[00:28:31] But the most earth shattering upheaval was still in the future of our path at that point.

[00:28:40] You brought up the book, Holy Troublemakers and Unconventional Saints.

[00:28:45] I'm Danine and Steven are dear friends of mine, and they are single handedly responsible for the next step of my journey.

[00:28:56] And that I had a we had a mutual friend who was it to me in the closet.

[00:29:02] They were part of the LGBT community, but they were in the closet to me.

[00:29:06] And they went to Danine and Steven and said, you know, Herb's theology of love and inclusion.

[00:29:13] He's affirming. But he doesn't know we exist. He doesn't know we're out here.

[00:29:18] He doesn't know and he doesn't even know that we're affirming yet.

[00:29:22] You know, and I've been raised in a Christian bubble where members of the LGBTQ community are characterized in a certain untrue and destructive way.

[00:29:33] Right.

[00:29:35] So I didn't. So all of the the LGBTQ people I knew, I didn't know they were LGBT.

[00:29:42] You know, they do they were part of my faith community, but the faith community itself wasn't safe.

[00:29:47] But I was gravitating in my theology into a space where they were like, wait a second, if you reason out what Herb's been saying,

[00:29:54] this is the furthest logical conclusion. Somebody should clue him in to where he's headed.

[00:30:01] And so Danine and Steven were making a documentary at that time.

[00:30:05] And it's a beautiful story and it's a long story, but the short version of it is they were they were doing they had done this documentary and they were doing these viewings all across the nation in these theaters.

[00:30:17] They would read out these theaters and they would show this documentary and then they would they would have these group discussions afterwards.

[00:30:26] And and and it was just this beautiful moment of synergy where people would as community encounter this paradigm shift together.

[00:30:35] And they contacted me and said, hey, we have a mutual friend who you we can't tell you who they are.

[00:30:42] But they said you need to send see our film.

[00:30:46] Here's our schedule. Here's a list of where our viewings are going to be our screenings are going to be.

[00:30:52] Can you make it to any of these?

[00:30:54] And I and I at that time in my ministry, every weekend of my life was scheduled with a seminar somewhere for three years out.

[00:31:04] Oh, and so I said, listen, I don't have I don't have a weekend to come do this.

[00:31:09] I'm already booked. I mean, I'd love to see it in three years, but that doesn't seem you know, that doesn't seem good.

[00:31:14] So so they said, well, hey, let us send you a DVD, but you got to promise that once you watch it, you're supposed to watch it with people around nobody.

[00:31:20] You'd be the only person ever to watch it by yourself.

[00:31:23] See, you know, see, can you can you make sure you destroy the DVD when you're done?

[00:31:27] Don't you know, but we want you to see this.

[00:31:29] And so I was like, hey, cool, send it to me.

[00:31:31] I'll watch it. Now totally naive. Send it to me.

[00:31:33] You know, I'll give it a look.

[00:31:36] She messed with me back two days later and said, actually, we decided not to send you the DVD.

[00:31:41] We've changed our schedule.

[00:31:43] You're going to be in Northern California doing this 10 day event on these dates.

[00:31:49] We've rented the movie theater in that town.

[00:31:53] We're going to bring a screening to you.

[00:31:57] And so I was speaking at this event where 10,000 people show up for 10 days to go to multiple seminars.

[00:32:05] They don't all go to the same events, right?

[00:32:07] But they're like this group in Northern California.

[00:32:11] And I'm speaking every night to about 1500 people.

[00:32:15] And I make the announcement. Hey, there's this new documentary out on this topic.

[00:32:19] And I'm going to go watch it tomorrow in town.

[00:32:23] Anybody want to join me?

[00:32:25] And that was my first naive miss.

[00:32:28] Well, then I wouldn't say misstep.

[00:32:29] It was the right thing to do, but that I was just naive about it.

[00:32:33] So the next day, my wife with me went with me.

[00:32:36] I brought my kids with me because I had the sense at that point that this is big.

[00:32:40] Something's, you know, something's gonna something's gonna happen here.

[00:32:43] And there's all these people from the event going to whatever happens.

[00:32:46] I want my kids to be a part of this, too.

[00:32:49] I want them to experience this, too.

[00:32:51] So we all went and a bunch of people from the event went.

[00:32:55] And that was, um, that was life changing for me, man.

[00:33:01] There is no exaggeration to say that I felt like Peter.

[00:33:05] Encountering the uncircumcised in the book of Acts

[00:33:09] and seeing the Holy Spirit making no distinction

[00:33:13] between them and me.

[00:33:17] And how wrong my assumptions had been.

[00:33:21] And so within a period of months, renewed heart ministries became an affirming

[00:33:26] and welcoming ministry.

[00:33:30] And that's where things really initially went south.

[00:33:33] And I want to be very careful when I say that financially we hit rock bottom

[00:33:38] and had to start the entire ministry over again.

[00:33:40] And we're still not back to where we used to be on in that, you know, with those measurements.

[00:33:47] But I want to say that as much as we lost,

[00:33:51] I will always be forever indebted to my LGBTQ

[00:33:57] people of faith who introduced me to a Jesus that I had never known.

[00:34:03] My life has been radically positively changed

[00:34:08] by meeting LGBTQ Christians and the way they read the Gospels.

[00:34:12] And it impacts everything.

[00:34:14] After that, I started reading some Black Liberation Theology

[00:34:18] and then some Womanist Liberation Theology

[00:34:20] and Latin Liberation Theology

[00:34:22] and still going back to the Gospels

[00:34:24] and trying to read the Gospels from a different social location

[00:34:28] than I myself was in and trying to be open

[00:34:31] and yeah, just one thing led to another.

[00:34:34] And I mean, it's been a rebuild.

[00:34:37] But that's what this book is about.

[00:34:39] This book is just basically my story of how I used to be

[00:34:43] a fundamentalist preacher and then I bumped into Jesus

[00:34:46] and this is what happened.

[00:34:48] That's amazing.

[00:34:49] And I also just love and I do not mean this

[00:34:53] flippantly by any means, but isn't it funny how like

[00:34:59] going and watching something like you were talking about going to spring

[00:35:03] to that film within like that more conservative

[00:35:07] or fundamentalist like groups of folks,

[00:35:10] you might as well have been just going to watch porn.

[00:35:14] You know what I mean?

[00:35:15] It's one of those things where you're like,

[00:35:17] you should watch this.

[00:35:18] You shouldn't do this.

[00:35:19] You shouldn't.

[00:35:20] No, I know, but it's funny that ideas end up being so scary

[00:35:23] to these folks.

[00:35:24] To be honest, what was on the screen

[00:35:27] was gay people having Bible studies

[00:35:29] and a lesbian couple taking their kids to vacation

[00:35:32] Bible school.

[00:35:33] You know what I mean?

[00:35:34] And all of these gay people of faith or lesbian

[00:35:37] or bi people of faith.

[00:35:38] I don't know if they're really bi people in there.

[00:35:40] I don't know, but there might have been.

[00:35:42] But you know, here I am encountering these and I don't

[00:35:46] want to also I don't want to give the impression that

[00:35:50] everything changed right there in that one movie.

[00:35:53] I did an enormous amount of reading and homework in the

[00:35:57] months that followed.

[00:35:58] And I remember being in my car driving to another event

[00:36:02] here in West Virginia when I was listening to an audio

[00:36:06] book while I drove and I got to the end of that book.

[00:36:09] And that was the kicker.

[00:36:10] That was the nail in the coffin.

[00:36:12] I said, Oh dear God, I have been so wrong about these

[00:36:18] people.

[00:36:19] And yeah, just just.

[00:36:21] Yeah.

[00:36:22] Yeah.

[00:36:23] Well, I mean that that is one thing that I think that

[00:36:26] you do incredibly well in the book is work in all of

[00:36:30] this stuff that would probably fit in a beautiful

[00:36:33] like nonfiction.

[00:36:34] Like here's good theology, here's bad theology,

[00:36:37] here's where I've moved.

[00:36:38] But you weave it in with your personal story.

[00:36:40] You weave it in with the miles of road and then

[00:36:43] and the tears and the anger and frustration of heartache

[00:36:46] all that together and it personalizes it really,

[00:36:49] really beautifully.

[00:36:50] Thanks for that.

[00:36:51] Yeah.

[00:36:52] Thank you.

[00:36:53] So talking about this, talking about how your

[00:36:55] paradigm shifted, which is a lot of the book.

[00:36:58] Let's talk about, I was going to throw at you some of the

[00:37:02] some of the arenas of thought that you wrestle with in it.

[00:37:05] But let's start off with this.

[00:37:07] Jesus's priorities was the section you have there too.

[00:37:11] And you've talked somewhat about how your priorities

[00:37:14] have shifted.

[00:37:15] But but let's talk about, yeah, like where you were

[00:37:18] to what is the truth of Jesus's priorities?

[00:37:22] Yeah.

[00:37:23] So when we talk about that section of the book,

[00:37:26] I mean above everything, above everything people were

[00:37:30] prioritized over pop property, power, privilege,

[00:37:35] but not just universal people.

[00:37:39] Everybody he specifically prioritized those whom his society

[00:37:46] was marginalizing and pushing to the edges and

[00:37:49] undersides of their society.

[00:37:51] That's who his heart was especially moved for.

[00:37:58] And so when we talk about the priorities of Jesus,

[00:38:01] for me, it was seeing how centerpiece people were,

[00:38:05] but but also a specific people in a specific

[00:38:10] social location.

[00:38:12] You know, Peter Gomes used to say in his book,

[00:38:16] The Scandalous Gospel of Jesus, I remember him

[00:38:20] in writing that, you know, the Gospel that the first

[00:38:25] shall be last and the last shall be first just

[00:38:28] isn't good news to everybody.

[00:38:30] Right?

[00:38:31] That's true.

[00:38:32] Yeah.

[00:38:33] It's it's it's great news if you're last, but it's

[00:38:35] pretty pretty problematic.

[00:38:37] If you sit in a social location of always being

[00:38:40] first and and that's what I started to realize

[00:38:43] is that Jesus prioritized those that were last,

[00:38:46] those that were the society had deemed and

[00:38:49] named and labeled as last or outsider or,

[00:38:52] you know, Howard Thurman calls the disinherited.

[00:38:56] And and with that, what are churches getting

[00:39:00] wrong today about that?

[00:39:02] I'm not saying every story starts with one.

[00:39:04] How do you start that list?

[00:39:06] But within the priorities, especially with the

[00:39:08] marginalized.

[00:39:10] Yeah, our faith communities and I know there

[00:39:12] are some beautiful exceptions out there,

[00:39:15] but to a large degree, our faith

[00:39:17] communities are not safe for anyone who's

[00:39:22] really asking questions and challenging the

[00:39:25] faith that they've been raised with.

[00:39:28] Whether whether your LGBTQ, whether you're

[00:39:33] poor, I, you know, I think of even churches

[00:39:36] that are still very deeply patriarchal,

[00:39:39] you know, or churches that, you know, are.

[00:39:43] I remember a few years back when Standing Rock

[00:39:45] was taking place and I get this.

[00:39:48] I mean, I understand the reality of this,

[00:39:51] but I was doing some writing at that time on

[00:39:53] Standing Rock and I was invited to North Dakota

[00:39:56] to do a weekend seminar and the church that was

[00:40:00] having me calm the night before I was to

[00:40:03] go to the airport and get on a plane.

[00:40:05] The president of that sisterhood of churches

[00:40:09] called me and said, listen, we've got to

[00:40:12] cancel your time with us this weekend.

[00:40:15] Our most significant tithe payer, he said,

[00:40:20] is one of these oil tycoons and they just

[00:40:25] got word of, you know, you and your solidarity

[00:40:28] with Standing Rock and they've threatened

[00:40:31] that if we have you come speak this weekend,

[00:40:34] they are our biggest tithe donor.

[00:40:36] They will withhold their tithe and pay it

[00:40:38] somewhere else. And so we like you, Herb,

[00:40:41] it's not worth that kind of risk.

[00:40:43] So the priority to keep the system running to

[00:40:46] questions threaten the system.

[00:40:48] When you start asking questions where Jesus

[00:40:50] prioritizes how you spend your money

[00:40:52] threatened the system, there's just so much

[00:40:55] that threatens the way things have been.

[00:40:57] I think at its core, there's so many details

[00:40:59] we could list. The list could be so long,

[00:41:02] but at its core, the church right now has

[00:41:05] a death grip on keeping things the way

[00:41:08] they've always been rather than, and I know

[00:41:11] so many of us are risk averse.

[00:41:13] You know, fear is what leads many people to

[00:41:15] faith, right? But to be at least

[00:41:19] to take the risk to hold this stuff with

[00:41:21] an open hand and get back to the Jesus

[00:41:24] story and say, well, where will it take

[00:41:26] us in our context today? How will it

[00:41:28] change things? And it will change things.

[00:41:30] I mean, that's my story's proof.

[00:41:34] And one of the things I think it changed

[00:41:36] in you, which I want you to speak more about

[00:41:38] too, is in taking Jesus seriously,

[00:41:42] you began to look into what does it mean

[00:41:46] to have redemptive suffering.

[00:41:49] Can you unpack some of that for us?

[00:41:52] Yeah, so I read a book that's now

[00:41:55] out of print called Christianity,

[00:41:59] Patriarchy and Abuse. That was my first

[00:42:02] introduction to the myth of redemptive

[00:42:05] suffering and looking at Christian

[00:42:09] Atonement Theology through the lens of

[00:42:15] women and women of diverse

[00:42:20] experiences, not just white women,

[00:42:24] but looking at, you know, Dolores Williams

[00:42:26] speaks to this in her book, Sisters

[00:42:28] in the Wilderness, but others a great

[00:42:31] article and I plug this article, this

[00:42:33] essay everywhere I can, but it's on

[00:42:36] HealingReligion.org. They host this

[00:42:39] essay for free, but it's called God

[00:42:41] So Love the World Question Mark and it's

[00:42:43] by Brown and Parker. And it's for

[00:42:46] those of you who are listening to

[00:42:48] this podcast, it'd be well worth your

[00:42:50] time just to go read that essay.

[00:42:52] But I had spent so many years trying

[00:42:55] to make sense out of Jesus' death

[00:42:59] and I understand the multitude of

[00:43:01] explanations that exist in our New

[00:43:03] Testament as they were trying to

[00:43:05] grapple with making sense out of it too.

[00:43:07] Nothing really ever landed before the

[00:43:09] can enclosed, right? So there's all these

[00:43:12] different theories. But you know I spent

[00:43:14] some early time in my, you know,

[00:43:17] way long ago I tried as a

[00:43:20] teenager, penal substitutionary

[00:43:23] Atonement that never worked, right?

[00:43:25] And if you're listening to this and you

[00:43:26] don't know what these terms are,

[00:43:27] trust me, you don't need even, you're

[00:43:29] better off not knowing what these

[00:43:31] terms mean. Yeah, penal substitution is

[00:43:33] basically just something that

[00:43:35] oftentimes people try out in college

[00:43:37] and then leave. Right. Yeah.

[00:43:39] And then, you know, I started

[00:43:43] experimenting with moral influence

[00:43:46] theory and that left too many questions

[00:43:49] unanswered. And then I tried some

[00:43:52] Christus Victor on for a while and

[00:43:54] that felt good for a little bit until

[00:43:56] it didn't until you grow out of that

[00:43:58] and realize that's deeply problematic

[00:44:00] to and then I bumped

[00:44:04] into these marginalized authors that

[00:44:06] look at the scriptures through their own

[00:44:08] experience. And these marginalized

[00:44:12] communities saying actually, the

[00:44:14] cross isn't the focal point of the

[00:44:17] of the gospel. The death is not

[00:44:20] redemptive. The suffering is not redemptive.

[00:44:22] That's not the end of the story.

[00:44:24] That was the state executing Jesus.

[00:44:26] That was the state violence for him

[00:44:28] speaking out for the marginalized,

[00:44:30] especially in flipping the tables in

[00:44:32] the temple and all of that. The

[00:44:34] story is really one of good news where

[00:44:37] everything that was accomplished

[00:44:40] through the death of Jesus through

[00:44:42] the murder through the execution of

[00:44:44] Jesus was reversed, undone

[00:44:46] and overcome three days later

[00:44:48] through the resurrection

[00:44:50] story event where Jesus's teachings

[00:44:52] now live on in the lives of Jesus's

[00:44:55] followers. And so the focal point

[00:44:58] now is resurrection. And I know

[00:45:01] the scientific, I get all that,

[00:45:03] wherever we land on that. The

[00:45:05] story truth here, you know what I mean?

[00:45:07] The narrative is that life can

[00:45:09] overcome death, that love conquers

[00:45:11] hate, that the state tried to silence

[00:45:13] this voice and silence this movement.

[00:45:15] But the God of this book

[00:45:19] took the side of the oppressed,

[00:45:23] brought him back to life and

[00:45:25] caused that movement to live on.

[00:45:27] Now, however you scientifically make sense

[00:45:29] out of that, I don't care. That's the

[00:45:31] story, you know what I mean? And the

[00:45:33] moral of that story, even if it's just

[00:45:36] Cinderella story, the moral of that

[00:45:38] story is that there that the

[00:45:41] God of the universe, that the Christian

[00:45:44] God, if you want to call it that

[00:45:46] or the Judeo, you know, God is

[00:45:49] on the side of the oppressed. And

[00:45:52] when the state stood up and tried to

[00:45:54] silence Jesus, that silence

[00:45:57] turned into an interruption, not

[00:46:00] a quelling, not a silencing that Jesus's

[00:46:03] salvific work was interrupted, not

[00:46:05] accomplished, interrupted by the

[00:46:08] cross. And the wreck resurrection causes

[00:46:11] it to content to restart and continue

[00:46:14] on and keep going. And so there's

[00:46:16] this idea of the myth of redemptive

[00:46:18] suffering. You know, when we teach that Jesus's suffering is redemptive,

[00:46:22] what that leads us to do is all kinds of

[00:46:25] applications in our own life that can be

[00:46:28] very harmful in how we respond to

[00:46:30] suffering.

[00:46:32] How has our own suffering? How has that shift

[00:46:34] impacted the way that you engage

[00:46:38] with the world around you? This idea that

[00:46:40] this old idea that Jesus came

[00:46:42] to die versus

[00:46:44] that Jesus teaching us,

[00:46:46] no, no, this is I'm teaching you a better way to live.

[00:46:48] How was that changed?

[00:46:50] Part of it is non-violence, you know,

[00:46:52] that if there is a God, that God is

[00:46:54] not demanding that someone suffer a

[00:46:56] violent death to satisfy

[00:46:58] some need for violence

[00:47:00] within that God's system.

[00:47:02] So part of that is metaphysical

[00:47:04] and how I view the divine, whatever

[00:47:06] that is out there as being

[00:47:08] not demanding this sacrifice.

[00:47:10] But it's even more than that because

[00:47:12] Jesus didn't come to die.

[00:47:14] Jesus didn't choose death.

[00:47:16] Jesus chose

[00:47:18] to not let go

[00:47:20] of life

[00:47:22] when he was threatened

[00:47:24] with death, if he kept

[00:47:26] holding on to the path of life, to the way

[00:47:28] of life. And that may sound

[00:47:30] like a very subtle difference to people.

[00:47:32] No, it's huge.

[00:47:34] Yeah, that makes a radical

[00:47:36] difference in how we respond

[00:47:38] to injustice and suffering

[00:47:40] in our world. When we start speaking out

[00:47:42] and people say just bear your cross.

[00:47:44] No, no, no, no, no.

[00:47:46] The cross is what they threaten

[00:47:48] you with for speaking out.

[00:47:50] It's not the injustice itself.

[00:47:52] Keep speaking out.

[00:47:54] Keep calling for change.

[00:47:56] Keep working for change. Keep working

[00:47:58] to make the world a safer, more just,

[00:48:00] more compassionate home for everyone.

[00:48:02] And the cross is not

[00:48:04] intrinsic to following Jesus.

[00:48:06] The cross is only brought into the picture

[00:48:08] when people feel threatened

[00:48:10] with the changes that we're calling for

[00:48:12] and they try to get us to shut up.

[00:48:14] They're the ones that bring the cross into the picture

[00:48:16] and it's in that moment that we realize, oh,

[00:48:18] that's the place

[00:48:20] holder that the sufferings of Jesus holds.

[00:48:22] What I'm called to as a

[00:48:24] follower of Jesus is to not let go

[00:48:26] of life, to keep speaking

[00:48:28] out, to keep calling for change.

[00:48:30] You know, to not

[00:48:32] to not be silent. What does it gain

[00:48:34] the whole world? What does it gain

[00:48:36] the person if they gain the whole

[00:48:38] world through being silent?

[00:48:40] But they lose their soul. They lose their humanity.

[00:48:42] They lose touch with who they are.

[00:48:44] So it makes a significant difference for me

[00:48:46] in how I respond to injustice

[00:48:48] societally, but even my own

[00:48:50] suffering personally.

[00:48:52] I get that.

[00:48:54] And in so much, I feel like what we've talked

[00:48:56] about

[00:48:58] this journey that you've been on and what

[00:49:00] you've learned as you've moved and changed

[00:49:02] and evolved

[00:49:04] and how you hold

[00:49:06] your own cultures and how you view Christ.

[00:49:08] I feel like

[00:49:10] your journey is what they oftentimes call

[00:49:12] in ministry,

[00:49:14] the slippery slope.

[00:49:16] Right? You know the idea? No, no, I'm not

[00:49:18] because I think it's hilarious.

[00:49:20] No, the reason I respond that way

[00:49:22] is because I wish I had a nickel for every time

[00:49:24] I'd heard that. Oh, me too.

[00:49:26] But it's like, oh, if you go there, it's the

[00:49:28] slippery slope. Don't go to the slippery slope.

[00:49:30] So you've been down the slippery slope.

[00:49:32] I've been down the slippery. It's quite

[00:49:34] fun.

[00:49:36] I want to say the reconstruction

[00:49:38] after the deconstruction

[00:49:40] is really a beautiful journey.

[00:49:42] It is. It really is, but

[00:49:44] there are

[00:49:46] there are people out there listening that

[00:49:48] had these questions. I know I've been

[00:49:50] there at different parts in my journey and

[00:49:52] in those

[00:49:54] questions that nag at us that we want to know

[00:49:56] answers to that we're

[00:49:58] afraid to ask.

[00:50:00] Ah.

[00:50:02] For those folks that kind of fear the slippery

[00:50:04] slope, fear asking those questions,

[00:50:06] fear doing that. What is your advice

[00:50:08] for them? This is going to sound

[00:50:10] totally self-serving.

[00:50:12] But I would love for them to at least

[00:50:14] buy my book and read it

[00:50:16] so they can see that

[00:50:18] these questions some of the questions

[00:50:20] I think we'd be lying if

[00:50:22] we said they have answers, you know what I mean?

[00:50:24] Some and part of the problem is every time

[00:50:26] you find a good answer there's 10 more questions behind

[00:50:28] it, right? True. True. Some things

[00:50:30] you just got to learn to live with questions.

[00:50:32] But there are other answers

[00:50:34] that when you see

[00:50:36] these questions and these answers

[00:50:38] are actually in the Jesus

[00:50:40] story. When you read the Jesus story with

[00:50:42] new eyes and you see it's grounded

[00:50:44] already in this Jesus

[00:50:46] that is already the centerpiece

[00:50:48] of your Christian

[00:50:50] walk, you know, whatever that is.

[00:50:52] Um, this this

[00:50:54] when you see it's grounded

[00:50:56] in the story then you start to see

[00:50:58] that you that

[00:51:00] for me at least I saw

[00:51:02] how out of harmony my story

[00:51:04] was with the Jesus story

[00:51:06] and and and how

[00:51:08] if I lean into these questions who cares

[00:51:10] if it's a slippery slope or not

[00:51:12] when you lean into these questions

[00:51:14] you see your story

[00:51:16] start to align with

[00:51:18] the Jesus story and the same

[00:51:20] institutions that were threatened

[00:51:22] by Jesus become

[00:51:24] threatened to uh, of course

[00:51:26] they want to call this a

[00:51:28] they called following Jesus a slippery slope

[00:51:30] I'm sure. Yeah.

[00:51:32] I mean that was like the totally new

[00:51:34] international herb version translation

[00:51:36] I'm sure but I'm somebody

[00:51:38] somewhere use the same idea saying

[00:51:40] if you follow this man that this is dangerous.

[00:51:42] Yeah.

[00:51:44] It fascinates me though

[00:51:46] that

[00:51:48] and and I'll get your opinion on this

[00:51:50] this is something that I've tended to notice

[00:51:52] I grew up around

[00:51:54] like Southern Baptist churches

[00:51:56] fundamentalist type stuff

[00:51:58] and what I feel

[00:52:00] at least what I felt like oftentimes

[00:52:02] in preaching in those circles

[00:52:04] is that we need Jesus

[00:52:06] like we need Jesus as

[00:52:08] someone to die

[00:52:10] for sins you know

[00:52:12] and come back again as a king

[00:52:14] but what I've often times like I've seen in a lot of these areas

[00:52:16] there will be a lot of Old Testament

[00:52:18] talk and then there's a lot of talk

[00:52:20] but we like to kind of not use

[00:52:22] too much of those sermon on the mounts

[00:52:24] of those tough words of Jesus

[00:52:26] because we

[00:52:28] really just want Jesus to tell us

[00:52:30] we're all good boys and girls and we're going to go to heaven

[00:52:32] in the end and not hell

[00:52:34] and that you know Jesus

[00:52:36] is kicking ass and taking names

[00:52:38] because he's King Jesus victorious.

[00:52:40] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:52:42] I think there's two ditches we can fall into

[00:52:44] and I actually talk about this a little bit in my podcast

[00:52:46] last week the one where

[00:52:48] I do a podcast on the lectionary each week

[00:52:50] and I'm trying to recast the gospel

[00:52:52] in the context of social justice

[00:52:54] the teachings of Jesus in the context of

[00:52:56] social justice but this

[00:52:58] first of all our gospel

[00:53:00] is either about

[00:53:02] post-mortem bliss

[00:53:04] just give me the assurance of heaven

[00:53:06] you know just give me a seat in the

[00:53:08] non-smoking section please

[00:53:10] or

[00:53:12] it's a focus on

[00:53:14] a private individualized

[00:53:16] personal internal

[00:53:18] you know relationship with Jesus

[00:53:20] or relationship with God

[00:53:22] or some type of personal piety

[00:53:24] or spiritual experience with a cosmic being

[00:53:26] you know either one of those

[00:53:28] focuses and I don't want to poo poo that too much

[00:53:30] because if that's where you're at

[00:53:32] that's fine but we have

[00:53:34] to at least start by being honest

[00:53:36] about how both of those

[00:53:38] focuses are ditches on either side

[00:53:40] of the road that they have the potential

[00:53:42] to immensely

[00:53:44] distract us from the focus

[00:53:46] that Jesus had and called us

[00:53:48] to follow him in

[00:53:50] in the synoptics and that's being a source of

[00:53:52] life and liberation

[00:53:54] and salvation whatever

[00:53:56] that means

[00:53:58] in people's day-to-day concrete physical

[00:54:00] lives in the here and now today

[00:54:02] that there's a focus on

[00:54:04] this world right now

[00:54:06] societally, socially

[00:54:08] you can't in other words you can't love

[00:54:10] people right and not care about what

[00:54:12] they're suffering

[00:54:14] God loves the world

[00:54:16] and sorry

[00:54:18] vote for legislatures that are going to

[00:54:20] put into existence laws that harm

[00:54:22] the objects of God's universal love

[00:54:24] you can't

[00:54:26] love people

[00:54:28] and only be focused on

[00:54:30] a gospel that assures you of getting to heaven

[00:54:32] or you of having some private personal experience

[00:54:34] and so I think that's where it is

[00:54:36] we have such grave

[00:54:38] insecure and I

[00:54:40] don't think it's universal I think this is actually

[00:54:42] this is a problem

[00:54:44] for privileged

[00:54:48] people that are Christians

[00:54:50] in my social location

[00:54:52] privileged Christians because we know something's wrong

[00:54:54] we need a gospel

[00:54:56] that's going to talk about no condemnation

[00:54:58] for our conscience

[00:55:00] that's being pricked that knows something's off

[00:55:02] that we're benefiting from a system

[00:55:04] that's harming others

[00:55:06] we need a gospel that assures us

[00:55:08] that everything's gonna be okay

[00:55:10] we need a gospel that's basically guilt

[00:55:12] alleviation

[00:55:14] we need a gospel that's just gonna help us sleep

[00:55:16] at night and when you start talking

[00:55:18] about the teachings of Jesus and the ethics

[00:55:20] of the Jesus story

[00:55:22] what it's doing is it's triggering

[00:55:24] all of that sensation

[00:55:26] that what I'm participating in either

[00:55:28] passively or actively or at least what

[00:55:30] I'm complicit in is harmful

[00:55:32] it's actuating that

[00:55:34] and it's causing deep discomfort

[00:55:36] that we just want to get away from

[00:55:38] it's much easier to preach a gospel

[00:55:40] and focus on a gospel about Jesus

[00:55:42] that assures us that God loves us

[00:55:44] than it is for us to actually

[00:55:46] lean into the gospel

[00:55:48] Jesus teaches in the story

[00:55:50] where he's teaching us how

[00:55:52] to love each other

[00:55:54] it is

[00:55:56] it's a harder path to take

[00:55:58] but yeah

[00:56:00] but you're right it's not escapism

[00:56:02] it's not that we're covering it up with anything else

[00:56:04] where we're at and

[00:56:06] but I think it really has to do with what it triggers

[00:56:08] for privileged Christians

[00:56:10] you know we gravitate

[00:56:12] towards again something just

[00:56:14] helps us sleep at night a no condemnation

[00:56:16] version of the gospel

[00:56:18] right? where there's no judgment

[00:56:20] no condemnation

[00:56:22] well listen there are marginalized communities

[00:56:24] that actually preach a gospel

[00:56:26] of God's judgment

[00:56:28] on the oppressors

[00:56:30] you know what I mean

[00:56:32] I think your social location

[00:56:34] makes a big difference in how you respond to Jesus

[00:56:36] and for those that

[00:56:38] do live in a more privileged social location

[00:56:40] when you start to feel

[00:56:42] that discomfort

[00:56:44] what I would say is lean into that

[00:56:46] discomfort you're in the right story

[00:56:48] this is how privileged people

[00:56:50] felt around Jesus

[00:56:52] and Zacchaeus

[00:56:54] he could have chucked it

[00:56:56] but he leaned into it in the story

[00:56:58] and he abandoned

[00:57:00] that complicity

[00:57:02] and became a source of hope

[00:57:04] for others

[00:57:06] that he had previously harmed

[00:57:08] that's a great story

[00:57:10] in Luke there

[00:57:12] where someone

[00:57:14] from our social location

[00:57:16] chose to not lean away

[00:57:18] from that discomfort

[00:57:20] but to lean into it

[00:57:22] and how it changed

[00:57:24] his entire world

[00:57:28] that's wonderful

[00:57:30] so I've got one last question for you

[00:57:32] two parts

[00:57:34] that's slick

[00:57:36] it is

[00:57:38] yeah

[00:57:40] what does it mean when a preacher says he's about to close

[00:57:42] absolutely nothing

[00:57:44] just keep in your seat

[00:57:46] he's just getting started

[00:57:48] no these will be

[00:57:50] two part or how about that

[00:57:52] one question two parts

[00:57:54] as you're going through this

[00:57:56] what pisses you off right now in life

[00:57:58] and what gives you hope

[00:58:00] okay

[00:58:02] well the hope part

[00:58:04] I'm struggling with

[00:58:06] I'll be very transparent

[00:58:08] I don't feel a lot of hope these days

[00:58:10] as I look at the landscape

[00:58:12] of our society during an election year

[00:58:14] there's a lot

[00:58:16] right

[00:58:18] there's a lot

[00:58:20] of stuff that challenges my hope

[00:58:22] and I am

[00:58:24] reminded once again

[00:58:26] that hope

[00:58:28] is a discipline

[00:58:30] sometimes we choose to have hope

[00:58:32] and we choose to believe

[00:58:34] not because we think the world is ever going to change

[00:58:36] but because we don't want the world

[00:58:38] to change us

[00:58:40] I may not be able to change the world

[00:58:42] but I'll be damned if I'm going to let the world change

[00:58:44] the kind of human being I'm choosing to be

[00:58:46] so

[00:58:48] I hold on to hope

[00:58:50] white knuckled some days

[00:58:52] but I tell you what pisses me off the most

[00:58:54] since you asked that question

[00:58:56] I just don't understand

[00:59:02] how and again I live in Appalachia

[00:59:04] my exposure to Christianity

[00:59:06] today

[00:59:08] is largely Appalachian Christianity

[00:59:10] I know this is not true

[00:59:12] of all fundamentalists

[00:59:14] it's not true of all evangelicals

[00:59:16] but I cannot

[00:59:18] for the life of me

[00:59:20] understand

[00:59:22] why are we

[00:59:24] following

[00:59:26] such an un-Christ-like

[00:59:28] person

[00:59:30] in our society as Christians today

[00:59:32] Christianity's fascination

[00:59:34] with Trump

[00:59:36] has done more

[00:59:38] damage

[00:59:40] in the hearts and minds of the onlookers

[00:59:42] of what Christianity is supposed to be about

[00:59:44] I cannot

[00:59:46] believe the damage that

[00:59:48] has been done

[00:59:50] through Christians

[00:59:52] just wanting to push their pro-life agenda

[00:59:54] and for that payoff

[00:59:56] which is destructive

[00:59:58] to its core it's not pro-life

[01:00:00] but for that payoff

[01:00:02] how they're willing to

[01:00:04] just

[01:00:06] trash

[01:00:08] their reputation

[01:00:10] through their endorsement

[01:00:12] of

[01:00:14] in my opinion

[01:00:16] I un-Christ-like

[01:00:18] leader we've had the option

[01:00:20] been given the option of

[01:00:22] in

[01:00:24] forever

[01:00:26] I'm just still

[01:00:28] experiencing disillusion on a daily basis

[01:00:30] the people that I've looked up to

[01:00:32] in Christianity all my life

[01:00:34] can step behind

[01:00:36] and support

[01:00:38] so I am

[01:00:40] I'm very concerned about politics

[01:00:42] I think that politics

[01:00:44] and I'm not small partisan politics

[01:00:46] politics is people right

[01:00:48] politics is about how we share power

[01:00:50] and how we make sure

[01:00:52] the politics of Jesus is give the poor everything

[01:00:54] Jesus was political that's what got him in trouble

[01:00:56] but

[01:00:58] I'm not talking about partisan politics

[01:01:00] but I am talking about how do we

[01:01:02] how do we make

[01:01:04] how does legislation against

[01:01:06] transgender young people

[01:01:08] and I live in West Virginia

[01:01:10] how is that following Jesus

[01:01:12] how are we doing

[01:01:14] how is that anything

[01:01:16] remotely

[01:01:18] to be about and you know right now my state

[01:01:20] is trying to strip unemployment

[01:01:22] benefits from the poor

[01:01:24] how is and it's the Christians that are voting

[01:01:26] for these guys absolutely yeah

[01:01:28] so the part of me is where

[01:01:30] the rubber meets the road politically

[01:01:32] that's really what's concerning

[01:01:34] me I'm not concerned about where Christianity

[01:01:36] is as much theologically

[01:01:38] and all that we could argue theology all day

[01:01:40] I'm very much concerned

[01:01:42] with the way Christianity is

[01:01:44] just a tool today

[01:01:46] and is being manipulated today

[01:01:48] by politicians that

[01:01:50] do harm in ways

[01:01:52] that resonate with the biases

[01:01:54] and prejudices of Christians

[01:01:56] but doesn't reflect very much

[01:01:58] the Jesus that we have in the story

[01:02:02] I know that's a can of worms

[01:02:04] no I love it I love it because in a weird way

[01:02:06] like that's what I'm

[01:02:08] I'm a sick human apparently because

[01:02:10] I feel like in a

[01:02:12] weird way mentioning

[01:02:14] just the rise of Trump

[01:02:16] and Christian nationalism and

[01:02:18] all of that I've also found

[01:02:20] it oddly

[01:02:24] it's disgusting in how people are

[01:02:26] being marginalized and treated but I feel

[01:02:28] like if you take a step back it's kind

[01:02:30] of beautiful because I feel like it's exposed

[01:02:32] the BS that has been

[01:02:34] there in those systems for

[01:02:36] so long I mean I know

[01:02:38] part of your book you even mentioned Jim

[01:02:40] Baker and PTL at the beginning to I mean

[01:02:42] I remember that too

[01:02:44] and I do think in a

[01:02:46] weird way

[01:02:48] it is good for these things

[01:02:50] to be exposed you know to kind of

[01:02:52] pull over the rock and see what's under it

[01:02:54] but the bad thing is what it's also

[01:02:56] doing and harming and steamer holding people

[01:02:58] and yeah I can look

[01:03:00] at it academically because of my social

[01:03:02] location is not one of the priorities

[01:03:04] that harm is being done

[01:03:06] to I

[01:03:08] don't know that that exposure

[01:03:10] as good as it

[01:03:12] is is worth it

[01:03:14] when I think about my trans friends

[01:03:16] when I think about

[01:03:18] you know

[01:03:20] yeah those that are

[01:03:22] being those that are suffering significant

[01:03:24] harm from what

[01:03:26] the from the legislative decisions that are

[01:03:28] being made right now I mean

[01:03:30] we have I just I'm not going to

[01:03:32] give this guy I'm not going to mention this guy's name

[01:03:34] but you know in West Virginia someone's

[01:03:36] running for governor right now

[01:03:38] and his television ads

[01:03:40] are about

[01:03:42] transgender people in

[01:03:44] bathrooms and about

[01:03:46] how communists have infiltrated

[01:03:48] our state universities

[01:03:50] and you know and and I

[01:03:52] sit there and I look at that and I think

[01:03:54] and and my Christian neighbors

[01:03:56] eat this stuff

[01:03:58] and yet being exposed

[01:04:02] but are they even seeing it are the right people seeing

[01:04:04] it mmm yeah I mean it from

[01:04:06] I think the standpoint of two of me

[01:04:08] personally being able to go oh yeah

[01:04:10] those folks are not for me anymore

[01:04:12] right you being honest let's get away from this

[01:04:14] it is a clarifying moment where things

[01:04:16] do gel because you're right yeah well you're like

[01:04:18] well never mind

[01:04:20] because but you are right about the assault of what's

[01:04:22] happening and we're just your neighbor

[01:04:24] to to the south in North Carolina

[01:04:26] with

[01:04:28] the guy running for governor

[01:04:30] in our state as well as cause called

[01:04:32] is called the LGBTQ

[01:04:34] community and trans people like filth

[01:04:36] and and it's

[01:04:38] like it's disgusting

[01:04:40] but I think in those

[01:04:42] time the Christians will vote for that

[01:04:44] that's what I don't get

[01:04:46] that's why not their heads to that too

[01:04:48] you know I mean you are people being like

[01:04:50] yeah

[01:04:52] yeah and

[01:04:54] and resonates with them kind of clears

[01:04:56] it out like yeah it's just like well

[01:04:58] these are the folks I can

[01:05:00] invest in and be around and these folks

[01:05:02] enjoy where you're at your hate parties

[01:05:04] I don't want to be there anymore yeah

[01:05:06] that's the slippery slope

[01:05:08] not the slope that we're on

[01:05:10] yeah that's the slippery slope

[01:05:12] mm-hmm it's a greasy

[01:05:14] slippery slope that's probably got bronzer

[01:05:16] somewhere on it and

[01:05:18] that's right yeah it's a little orange

[01:05:20] yeah just definitely a little

[01:05:22] orange

[01:05:26] thank you thank you for

[01:05:28] your time today the book

[01:05:30] is finding Jesus by Herb Montgomery

[01:05:32] as you've heard from her today it is

[01:05:34] Herb is a

[01:05:36] has a wonderful voice

[01:05:38] and if you're loving what you hear here

[01:05:40] the book is just more of that

[01:05:42] goodness so you should check it out

[01:05:44] and Herb thank you so much

[01:05:46] for your time today man thank you so

[01:05:48] much for having me again it's just been an honor

[01:05:50] and a privilege and I can't thank you

[01:05:52] enough just for the opportunity to come on and have

[01:05:54] this conversation with you

[01:05:56] thank you so much I look forward to this I look forward

[01:05:58] to more conversations with you in the future as well

[01:06:00] but alright thank you

[01:06:02] much thanks to her for being

[01:06:05] on the show and

[01:06:07] you should check out his book finding Jesus

[01:06:09] it is a fantastic

[01:06:11] read and it's something I think that we all need

[01:06:13] a little bit more about

[01:06:15] you know remembering what the hell

[01:06:17] we're doing here if we try to call ourselves

[01:06:19] the C word anymore

[01:06:21] before I send you off

[01:06:23] just a reminder to share the show

[01:06:25] subscribe and give snarky fate the review

[01:06:27] over on Apple podcast it helps to get

[01:06:29] the word out

[01:06:31] and I just want to thank you week after

[01:06:33] week month after month for being a part

[01:06:35] of this show I appreciate you all

[01:06:37] and as I release you out into this

[01:06:39] wild wide world

[01:06:41] I send you out with the holiest amount

[01:06:43] of grace

[01:06:45] peace

[01:06:47] and snark

[01:06:49] I'm outta here

[01:06:53] peace

[01:06:55] be with you

[01:07:28] and I'm gonna punch this guy in the face

[01:07:30] and then you end up laughing so hard it hurts

[01:07:32] yeah now imagine those conversations with a little

[01:07:34] faith mixed in a little culture

[01:07:36] now actually digging into the big questions

[01:07:38] not just the bless you kind of stuff

[01:07:40] that's bros bibles and beer

[01:07:42] Zach do you even like the bible

[01:07:44] I do Andy I just

[01:07:46] am not sure if God wrote it anymore

[01:07:48] every stinking time

[01:07:50] that's blasphemy of the holy spirit

[01:07:52] and I'm not sure if God wrote it anymore

[01:07:54] every stinking time

[01:07:56] that's blasphemy of the holy spiky

[01:07:58] how many beers have you had

[01:08:00] bros bibles and beer

[01:08:02] serious conversations on faith and culture

[01:08:04] without taking ourselves too seriously

[01:08:06] new episodes every week