Mimetic Theory & Middle-earth

[00:00:00] This choir cast podcast episode is brought to you by the wisdom of Hobbits. By me, Matthew J. Dastofono.

[00:00:06] In this hopeful yet at times poignant homage, I focus on everyone's favorite halfling friend, the Hobbit.

[00:00:14] Attarming people, this shire-based race has captivated and thralled and enchanted the hearts and minds of millions.

[00:00:20] And though they're not a religious society, I argue that spiritual truths, love, kindness, generosity, hope, and even compassion

[00:00:27] can be found within their familiar yet still relevant and didactic tales.

[00:00:32] Available now on Amazon, Barnes & Noble or wherever you get your fine, fine books from choir publishing.

[00:00:45] It's time for another round of Snarky Faith with your host, Stuart Delony. This is a space where we

[00:00:51] irreverently wrestle through life, culture and spirituality all with our heads in the clouds,

[00:00:57] our tongues in our cheeks, our hearts in our sleeves and our feet on the ground.

[00:01:02] That snarky face, the questions or even the answers are never the point it's all about the conversation.

[00:01:08] So here's your host, Stuart Delony.

[00:01:13] Welcome back to Snarky Faith I'm Stuart Delony your guide through the wilderness of spiritually

[00:01:20] disenfranchised radio. Had enough of the insanity and Christianity? Well you've come to the right place.

[00:01:26] We're here on a quest for a sane, grounded faith that aims to make the world better in real tangible

[00:01:32] ways. We're not afraid to call out the religious BS or to look for better pathways forward.

[00:01:38] If your conversation's about faith require a heavy dose of...

[00:01:41] Sarcasm

[00:01:42] And even a bit of this...

[00:01:44] Then welcome home. You can find this and all past episodes at snarkyfaith.com or wherever else

[00:01:51] you listen to podcasts. We're here, we're there, we're practically everywhere. Just look for snarky faith.

[00:01:59] Previously on snarky faith. I want to pray for stomach issues right now. I feel the Holy Spirit

[00:02:05] saying there's an anointing for stomachs to be healed in Jesus Christ's name. I come and

[00:02:10] can't see all extra acid in your stomach and I command it to go in Jesus name. I command

[00:02:16] leaky gut syndrome to go in the name of Jesus. Oh my God, I love some good gas lighting.

[00:02:25] But seriously when I listen to people like this it just kind of you know gives me a brain fart.

[00:02:32] Yeah, all right. Welcome to the show. What a wonderful way to welcome you in with such beautiful

[00:02:38] flatulent sentence sanity. But we're also going to be talking with author Matt Distofano about his

[00:02:45] new book. We'll talk a little bit about Mimesis. We'll talk a little bit about scapegoating and all

[00:02:51] that kind of stuff. And you know, it's probably going to convict me about all the things they do on

[00:02:58] this show wrong about blaming people and pointing out their faults and all that kind of good stuff.

[00:03:04] But hey, the interview hasn't happened yet on the show. So I'm absolutely free to go ahead and

[00:03:10] mock the best of the worst in Christianity. That's right. I think we need to. I think we should.

[00:03:19] I think we should go ahead and just hop into the choices cuts of Christian nuts. That's right.

[00:03:25] It's time again for the Christian crazy of the week.

[00:03:29] I don't want to be right.

[00:03:35] Claude Hemmer's the Lord is my shepherd. He know what I want.

[00:03:42] You know, when it comes to the Christian crazy, we've got a lot of regulars and I don't necessarily

[00:03:47] mean to play favorite. They're just so crazy that it's kind of easy to play favorites like,

[00:03:55] you're my little insane guy over there in the corner. Look at you. Look at you. You're just

[00:04:01] such a greasy little grifter, aren't you? Aren't you? Aren't you? Oh, yes. But I don't want to play

[00:04:08] favorites even though I do sometimes. I didn't realize this was going to turn into a confession.

[00:04:14] Thank you. No, but someone we haven't checked in on. Someone we haven't kind of done one of those,

[00:04:22] you know, proof of life checks for a while. Maybe it's good. Maybe it's bad. I don't know.

[00:04:27] But I know a lot of people have been asking themselves, you know, how's Greg Locke doing?

[00:04:33] You know, I think a lot of people think about that quite a bit like,

[00:04:38] crazy. You're a simbri-sam preacher, Greg Locke. How's he doing? So, you know, I think we should do

[00:04:44] a quick check in. Just do a quick check in. Hopefully he's doing well. You think?

[00:04:50] No, demon possess Britney Spears and Christina Aguilara. Taylor Swift, all these bunch of witches

[00:04:56] and warlocks at Hollywood. Oh, I want to be like them. They ain't got no foundation.

[00:05:01] Oh, okay. I think that was enough. I think that was enough. So it's good.

[00:05:07] Apparently Greg Locke is doing just fine. He's just the way we left him and still, still,

[00:05:16] just like a Chihuahua spew in his conspiracy theories and bigotry. Oh, that's what we call

[00:05:21] ministry folks. That's totally ministry. But you know, ministry is hard for so many of these

[00:05:29] greasy grifter pastors. It really is. It takes a toll on them. Now we started the show.

[00:05:37] You know, with a bit of gaslighting and this is going to be a beautiful amount of flatulence

[00:05:43] that comes out of Kent Christmas's mouth. But enjoy this because apparently his church is in debt.

[00:05:51] Don't worry. Ken's got a solution to that debt.

[00:05:54] Deuteronomy, chapter 28, somewhere in the middle there. God makes this statement

[00:06:02] about people who would obey his commandments and walk in his statues. He said,

[00:06:08] you will be the lender and not the barler. So today in the name of Jesus, this lie of 12 million

[00:06:22] dollars that we owe to the bank. I'm sorry. What? 12 million dollars that you owe to the bank for a

[00:06:29] loan? Oh, it must be demonic. It must be. It is challenging the word that cannot be changed or altered.

[00:06:42] It is challenging the word of God over this building. So we declare in the name of the Lord

[00:06:53] that we are imposing the law of heaven over this illegal debt. Not against the bank, but against

[00:07:06] the devour that's in the atmosphere that wants to distract us and put a burden on us of trying to

[00:07:13] make mortgages. We declare the name of the Lord. I take the million as the pastor of this house

[00:07:20] over this illegal debt, this lie of hell that it's violating the word of the Lord. Amen, little brother.

[00:07:27] Amen because the contract that you guys signed is evil and it's evil. It's evil. And we're going

[00:07:37] to pray it away. We're going to pray it away just like we told people to pray the guy away. Yes,

[00:07:46] you can also pray away your debts credit card debit card. We don't care. Just pray it away

[00:07:53] because debts against Christians, especially ones that they've incurred. Oh, they must be evil.

[00:07:59] There must be evil involved in this evil. The Lord just pay what you're supposed to pay

[00:08:09] because you signed a contract. But who cares about things like contracts and truth,

[00:08:16] reality, all that kind of stuff? It doesn't matter. So brothers and sisters, be praying for can't be

[00:08:22] praying that he does the righteous and Christian things and pays what he's supposed to effing pay.

[00:08:29] What the hell? What the hell? Especially because he's not even a pastor that can do the whole like

[00:08:35] I'm speaking the word of God right now during my church service. Oh wait, hey, Kunoan does that.

[00:08:42] Okay, Hank. What's God been telling you lately? I'm sure it sounds really, really sane and

[00:08:52] God like but let's go ahead and hear because you know every once in a while it's good for us to hear

[00:08:58] what God has to say. So Hank, I mean God, I mean Hank, I mean, I don't even know who's talking here but

[00:09:05] speak of Lord. I am listening to those at this time who have lifted up their voice to me and have

[00:09:12] cried out and there is one, there is one among you that has prayed that has cried out to me

[00:09:22] in simplicity in the innocence of their heart and I have listened to this one that I speak of

[00:09:30] and I have heard their prayer in the earth and they have prayed and they have even knelt before me

[00:09:37] and they have draped themselves in the flag of you, the United States. Wait, this is starting to sound

[00:09:44] a little erotic. I maybe I'm reading too much into this but you know he's pleaded to me,

[00:09:50] he's come to me on his knees, he's only draped in an American flag.

[00:09:57] Woo, that's pretty hot. That's pretty hot. I have no idea what this is going by the way.

[00:10:02] I'm pretty sure you don't. It could be anybody. It could be anybody because you know it's God

[00:10:06] speaking. God is like, because has looked across the land, has seen all of everyone's hearts.

[00:10:13] I mean, it could absolutely be anyone but who? Who? Who? Good God. Be talking about.

[00:10:22] I don't know. This I speak for they have said this one, God, how can I bring the United States closer

[00:10:32] to you again? And I speak of Donald Trump's is a living God he has prayed. He has spoke to me

[00:10:41] yet man have despised him. Yeah, we kind of knew that was coming. Oh no, the Lord speaks out in

[00:10:48] such weird and dumb terms how God just kind of talks about I'm the Lord and I have done this

[00:10:54] and done this and none and there was a glorious man with a glorious tan and a glorious head of

[00:11:01] hair. He's shaped like an orange. He looks like one and he's also very, you know, you know,

[00:11:10] round you learn just like one two. Oh, I the Lord talk like a caveman yelling into a cave so

[00:11:20] I can hear my echo. Yeah, I love this. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love

[00:11:26] it. I love every bit of it. And yes, yes, yes, you're listening to a show called Snarky Faith. So

[00:11:33] this is very thick sarcasm but I actually do love it. I love how they depict God as some

[00:11:39] sort of just moron in the sky that is as limp-dicked as the messenger for which God is choosing to be

[00:11:50] his mouthpiece, cod piece. I don't even know what's happening with this but it's always amazing.

[00:11:58] Like the I think there's probably some science we could do. There's probably a formula we could

[00:12:04] put up here but like the amount of like decishness and douchiness of the mouthpiece pastor or grifter

[00:12:12] or evangelist or prophet or whatever you want in certain that if you take their absolute shittery

[00:12:21] and then you kind of listen to how God speaks through them somehow God sounds just as shitty

[00:12:29] and bigoted and moronic as they do. You know God's ways aren't our ways I don't know. I don't

[00:12:40] even know what to do with this. What could it be? I mean, because certainly we all know this is

[00:12:46] absolute truth so what else do we do? But enough of this, enough of this Christian horseshit that

[00:12:53] we do every week. I actually want to take you to something that was good before we hop into our

[00:12:59] interview. This, this, this is not part of the Christian crazy. This is part of what we should be

[00:13:06] doing and I'm a little biased because this is very very very very thick with snark. So thick

[00:13:13] with snark. I am impressed. I'm impressed with the snark quotient in this next clip I'm going to

[00:13:18] give you. Now I will tell you that the reason for this next clip is awful. It's awful because of

[00:13:29] what actually happened that came, that brought this clip about in Oklahoma City and this happened

[00:13:39] in a wasso counting. We have a 16 year old non-binary teen named next Benedict that was beaten and

[00:13:51] bullied in school and then took their life a day later and the school district did nothing about it

[00:14:00] and this, this is beautiful because it involves somebody speaking out, speaking out about this

[00:14:08] injustice and pushing back against this school board that doesn't seem to care about the law,

[00:14:15] the loss of a trans life. This is Walter Masterson doing a masterful job on trolling them in the

[00:14:27] harshest most acidic way but it is snarky beautiful and it just reminds us that when these atrocities

[00:14:37] continue to happen in our country, in our community around us that we need to stand up and we need

[00:14:43] to be voices for the voiceless. And this, this is like, this is snarky beautiful

[00:14:49] and I wish I didn't even have to bring this clip to you because because

[00:15:00] if next hadn't been bullied and beaten, next would still be here and we wouldn't need this clip

[00:15:06] but this clip is good because bad stuff happens, continue continuously and we need to continue

[00:15:15] to show up and push back against it. So I will give you Walter Masterson being

[00:15:22] damn well near perfection in this.

[00:15:27] Have one speaker, Mr. Walter Masterson? Mr. Masterson?

[00:15:32] A more, you know, woke school board would see the death of a child and work to make sure it never

[00:15:37] happens again, not this board. This board sees a dead kid and says that's a good start because

[00:15:43] this school board signed up to protect all children and by all children they mean these children,

[00:15:50] not so much these children. Hate us if you want but, you know, we're the good guys. We want to let

[00:15:55] kids be kids and there's nothing more unnatural than a teenager experimenting with their identity.

[00:16:00] It has never happened before and should be punished. We're the good guys. We'll spit on a kid's grave,

[00:16:07] blame the parents and tell our teenagers to hit them harder. We're the good guys. When we heard

[00:16:13] that a trans child had been beaten to death, our state senator Tom Woods immediately released a

[00:16:18] statement. We don't want that filth in Oklahoma. We can call children filth even the dead ones because,

[00:16:30] you know, we're the good guys. And if we're wrong, if God doesn't want us driving off the lepers

[00:16:38] and deviance and worshipping the bankers, if our God doesn't want us casting the first stone,

[00:16:44] if our God doesn't want us loving people despite their differences. Well, if we're wrong,

[00:16:50] then I guess I'll see you all in hell. Thank you.

[00:16:57] Amen. Can I get name-in? Because wherever you're listening to, you need to give an amen to this.

[00:17:04] And I hate, I so hate that it takes the death of someone to bring out people calling out positions

[00:17:15] of power. I hate that this situation even had to happen. But it's a reminder that those in our

[00:17:26] society that are marginalized, especially by conservatives and evangelicals,

[00:17:34] they need a voice. And as we see Christian nationalism plowing forward, the GOP become

[00:17:43] in the Trump train and all this other BS that's happening that we're like, yeah, this is crazy

[00:17:48] over here. But they're crazy, which I like to make fun of. I hurt people's lives. It hurts people's

[00:17:56] lives. It damages our children. Why? Because they'll say that all the Bible says this, the Bible says

[00:18:05] nothing about any of this. You know what the Bible says? It says we're supposed to love people.

[00:18:10] It's supposed it says we're supposed to care about those that are marginalized and don't have a

[00:18:16] voice in our culture. It says all of these things. And none of this is Christian, none of this

[00:18:30] hatred and bigotry and just downright mean and nastiness against a 16-year-old.

[00:18:40] None of this, none of this, none of this, none of this has anything to do with the ways of Christ.

[00:18:49] It's sick, it's sad, it's disgusting. And we can all do better and situations like this remind us

[00:18:57] that we need to step up and do better. Step up and be the voices for those that need us to step

[00:19:05] into these situations to help those that need help. Crazy times we have to remain vigilant.

[00:19:16] We have to, we have to. Now I don't know if that's really a good transition for us to move

[00:19:22] into our conversation that we're going to be having today, but I think this also speaks to

[00:19:28] cultures desire to scapegoat, to name and blame and dehumanize people.

[00:19:37] Yeah, yeah all of that. And we're going to talk about Hobbits. We're going to talk about cute little

[00:19:43] Hobbits that I'm pretty sure George Lucas tried to replicate by making Ewoks but no Hobbits are

[00:19:52] so much better than Ewoks and I'll fight you on it. But here we have my conversation with Matt

[00:20:00] Dissifano about his new book and we'll be discussing all of these things, all of these topics right now.

[00:20:07] Here we go. With me today is Matt Dissifano. He's a producer of the Hairtick Happy Hour podcast

[00:20:16] co-host of the Apostate's Anonymous podcast and a regular columnist over on Patios. His new book

[00:20:24] Mimetic Theory, Middle Earth Untangling Desire in Tolkien's Legendarium is a book that we're

[00:20:31] going to be talking about today. It's insightful. It's enjoyable and I'm looking forward to this

[00:20:35] conversation. So welcome Matt. Thank you Stuart. Thanks for having me on again and yeah I'm excited

[00:20:42] to get into it. I'm excited to talk to you again and has anyone ever told you that you look like

[00:20:48] Lin-Manuel Miranda? No, I have not gotten that before but thank you. That is, I'll take the

[00:20:52] look. He's one of my favorite people so yeah in the past I've gotten when my hair was longer

[00:20:58] I got Aaron Rogers but that's you know awesome. He's from my actually where I live in Chico. He's

[00:21:06] originally from Chico California. Yeah. So does everyone in Chico that's from Chico California

[00:21:12] or the anti-bags? No, I think we're more like when he won the Super Bowl we put up like home of

[00:21:22] Aaron Rogers and quickly it was taken down and I don't know why but from from he's a bit of a mixed

[00:21:28] bag. That is true that is true. Yeah. Well this is your second book involving Hobbits. Your last

[00:21:35] one the wisdom of Hobbits unearthing our humanity at three bag shot row was great we had you on for

[00:21:42] that one and I want to talk to you then about your love of Tolkien. I'm sure there's got to be a

[00:21:49] story the beginning of your stories together how did all this love affair again? There's not

[00:21:56] and everyone asks those questions about like when did you first read Tolkien when did you get it?

[00:22:00] I mean I did I remember reading the Hobbit in eighth grade English and I liked it like I liked

[00:22:09] a lot of books but it didn't stick out to me as like something that's going to you know I'd put

[00:22:14] it in my top 10 of books that I read throughout my school years that at the time but now it's more like

[00:22:22] I don't know how I kind of like slowly slipped kind of like the slippery slope that Christians worry

[00:22:27] about you going down that they talk about. It was kind of like that I don't know when I jumped into

[00:22:32] the slide but I remember being a ways in and I'm like oh I think I'm a nerd now. It was like

[00:22:39] a past tense realization it wasn't like I want to become a nerd it was like I think I got like

[00:22:44] duped into this by some magic some wizardry here that I now have a Tolkien book collection and I'm

[00:22:52] talking lore from the Civil Reelion and now I want to write a book so then it just kind of

[00:22:58] it probably also came out of like being just exhausted about theology and not wanting to write

[00:23:05] about theology and so it was kind of like well what now what do I like to do and or what do I like

[00:23:11] to think about Tolkien popped into my head and it was daunting at first because so much

[00:23:17] so much ink has already been spilled but I mean gosh no more ink than theology. Yeah true.

[00:23:23] You know so how did this idea for this book come about like blending Tolkien and like

[00:23:31] René Girard because mostly people don't think of those two in the same breath.

[00:23:39] Well no not enough to this is the first book and I confirmed it with Dr. Melody Green a scholar

[00:23:45] and as far as we're aware this is the first book that does what I do with Girard and Tolkien.

[00:23:51] I purposely left Girard out of wisdom of Hobbits even though there's some mimetic theory stuff that

[00:23:56] I could have talked about but I didn't want to treat it in passing because it's you know it's like

[00:24:04] a it's a sociological anthropological scientific theory of human scientists sciences. I don't

[00:24:10] like I can't just mention it in passing so I purposely left it off I left off desire in

[00:24:16] in Wisdom of Hobbits. I mean I talked about some of the same themes without talking about

[00:24:20] the language of a mimetic theory. I didn't want to go there. Nat Turnie on this is not church

[00:24:26] asked me about that like did you go there in the book meaning he hadn't read it yet shame on no

[00:24:35] and I said no but that's a great idea maybe someone should do that and then I kind of

[00:24:40] backed myself into writing a sequel or a follow-up where I do focus on it and it's like it's funny

[00:24:48] you mentioned like it's not what people first think of Girard and Tolkien but when you actually look

[00:24:55] at it I mean I'm also I study a lot of mimetic theory so I see it in many places and it makes sense

[00:25:02] because my mimetic theory sprouted out of literature how people tell stories in Girard noticed

[00:25:07] patterns but it's just so obvious now especially with like themes of desire and the ring and

[00:25:15] scapegoating and sacrifices and violence and why we desire the things we desire and power

[00:25:22] and how that relates it's like oh yeah all the themes are there it's it makes sense I'm terrified

[00:25:27] that I seem to be the first that wrote a full book on it and now if any of theirs follow like they'll

[00:25:33] critique the hell out of mine I guess and the most important question then to follow up with that is

[00:25:37] does not get any of the proceeds from this since apparently whoa I mean I'll send him a

[00:25:47] box did you like to sneak did I get to make an idea is it he was like he asked me about the idea it

[00:25:54] was decided on the podcast I mean my idea and I did give him a shout out but no the proceeds I

[00:26:01] mean you're this is a stretch I hope he's not listening to this podcast like he doesn't read my book

[00:26:05] so I hope he doesn't listen to your podcast because then I mean I'm not wealthy he's coming for you man

[00:26:12] he may be he's coming maybe my heart is cash you've already inflamed mimetic envy and desire and jealousy

[00:26:19] we've already done it so speaking of that thank you that was even a more beautiful transition than I

[00:26:25] did he makes it look easy ladies and gentlemen so with the sake of the conversation can you give us

[00:26:32] like some sort of an overview nut shell of mimetic theory because yeah I want to delve into some

[00:26:39] of the finer points with you yeah I mean if I had like the 30,000 foot you know elevator

[00:26:47] pitch to mixed metaphors it's a theory of desire and where desire comes from and the inter

[00:26:55] related interconnectedness of humanity and our desires and so it basically says after our

[00:27:02] base their animalistic instincts of food shelter water procreation things like that we don't really

[00:27:09] know what to do to desire and as such we imitate the perceived desires of others which is a good

[00:27:17] it's a dangerous thing it leads to violence and envy and rivalry and especially in a capitalistic

[00:27:22] society like when there's when there's limited resources and more people that want those resources

[00:27:28] like it really inflames desire but it's also like a positive thing if we didn't have it we would be

[00:27:35] no more different than like animals like cows and things that you know desire grass and birds

[00:27:42] the desire bugs and you know so it's a human it's a human theory of desire much of it is focused on

[00:27:50] the negative because it does lead to scapegoating it love it does lead to unity at the expense of the

[00:27:57] other it does lead to rivalry but it's also how we learn it's how we grow it's how we imitate

[00:28:08] the masters of dance or jazz or you know whatever whatever thing we're imitating whatever

[00:28:15] person we look up to as our model of desire so and I try to emphasize that Gerard was very

[00:28:21] negative in much of his writings about the negative mymesis negative imitation inflamed

[00:28:29] below our conscious where I'm in conscious of this stuff where I'm unconscious when we gossip

[00:28:34] against another how we unify with that person we're gossiping even if they're not really our friends

[00:28:39] in the bible there's this great passage um Herod and pilot on that day became friends where before

[00:28:46] they were enemies at the expense of Jesus's death so it's like two people who didn't get along

[00:28:50] politically they become friends at the expense of the other um so there's a lot of that that goes on

[00:28:55] but as I point out in the book there's a lot of positive that has to do with our rituals and

[00:29:00] and our and our things like that we're like we come together as community we can be positively

[00:29:04] mimetic as long as we're conscious about it who do we take on his models do we take on people

[00:29:09] who are corrupt and um power hungry and greedy or do we take on people as models who are

[00:29:17] giving and self sacrificial and when we have that responsibility do we let power corrupt us

[00:29:24] when people have taken on us as models so it's it's this interplay of human interdiviguality

[00:29:30] that really strips it really strips of our like individual goodness or badness it's hard to

[00:29:36] categorize people as evil or good because we're also connected that we have to be really careful

[00:29:41] of how we structure our societies because much of it is is through violence and scapegoating and

[00:29:47] I don't know if that's too much information off the jump or that's basically the mimetic theory

[00:29:51] and a nutshell that is I like that it's a large nut but it was it was it was good it's a large

[00:29:56] yeah but it's a lot of ground to cover with it so when we talk about do you would you see

[00:30:03] modern-day cancellation as scapegoating? Sure yeah there's there's an aspect of that of course yeah

[00:30:11] there's a there's a live I've joked about how the fact that like in 2015 even like Trump was a scapegoat

[00:30:17] so when we talk about scapegoating we're not talking about like a good per like I talk about in the

[00:30:22] book the book even like Gollum's escapegoat the orcs are written as scapegoats like they're written

[00:30:27] as this reductive all terrible evil ugly group and it's like no group is that when we have

[00:30:35] descriptions of groups that are like that it's propaganda I mean how did the Germans describe

[00:30:40] the Jews? How would we describe Native American? How do we describe Japanese people? Like we've had

[00:30:44] this propaganda so when we have a reductive description of someone even if it's someone who's

[00:30:50] quote unquote evil and terrible and awful and malicious like there there is that propensity to

[00:30:56] scapegoat so yes yeah cancelling I mean I will say on the one hand I don't it's not as bad as

[00:31:03] the right seems to make it like everyone's in it too just for stepping stepping the wrong direction

[00:31:09] and there are some people who do think like that but it's not really a they're very loud of my

[00:31:14] noratine but I mean yeah any sort of cancelling like that I would see was scapegoating cancelling

[00:31:20] in the church kicking people out of church is scapegoating like demonizing the LGBTQ community

[00:31:25] is scapegoating the Muslim community is scapegoating like when we blame the immigrants for you know

[00:31:30] that's scape I mean we see it everywhere on the right on the left in our interpersonal

[00:31:35] relationships like in our family relationships work dynamics hell we scapegoat the dog when we

[00:31:40] come home yell at it when we had a bad day like you know what I mean like we scapegoat everything

[00:31:44] no that's that's that's that is totally true now when we begin to think about these ideas of

[00:31:49] of desire of power of prestige and how all those things contend to corrupt us as as who we are

[00:31:57] in that kind of the mimetic cycle how do you see it play it out in middle earth

[00:32:05] um well I mean I see it all over the place one one instance I really I think is it's almost like

[00:32:12] Tolkien had read Gerard but I don't think he did like when Saramon takes on

[00:32:18] he even describes himself as Saramon the ringmaker because he's so desperately wants to be

[00:32:22] Saram who so desperately wants to be melcore um and so there's like this chain of of my meses

[00:32:31] down from these like evil lords throughout middle earth Saramon describes himself as Saramon

[00:32:36] the ringmaker and there's an instance where Saramon Saramon the white when he's the head of the

[00:32:41] wizards the ishtari he's Saramon the white but then when he becomes corrupted he calls himself

[00:32:46] Saramon of many colors and he takes so it's like he's taking on he's admitting his taking on

[00:32:52] of others his the chief one being sauron and Gandalf tries to remind sauron sauron there's one Lord

[00:33:00] of the ring right there's there's there's there's the sauron he's not going to share power with you

[00:33:04] Saramon but Saramon still thinks that he will or that maybe he'll become subservient to even Saramon

[00:33:10] he'll become the new lord golem even describes himself as that there's this interesting little scene

[00:33:15] where golem calls himself lord golem um where he's gonna take the ring and he's gonna like supplant

[00:33:22] sauron and it's like lord golem it's it's almost like it's almost precious to use a pun like it's

[00:33:28] it's almost cute at that point like oh like but also horribly disheartening because it's like

[00:33:34] it's deceived even this wretched little creature to think that he could command armies of orcs and

[00:33:41] you know rule over middle earth and um like we've that you know again not to focus on all the negative

[00:33:47] but we see that play out in these characters where it's again like I just think I don't

[00:33:53] I don't think talking red jarrard but I think I think what jarrard noticed is that good storytellers

[00:34:01] understand human behavior and so that's how jarrard notices these themes it's not that they're

[00:34:06] trying to write in light of mimesis necessarily or the language of mimetic theory

[00:34:12] it's that if you understand human behavior you'll write your characters correctly

[00:34:16] and then we'll notice those things when we do have the language scientifically

[00:34:21] to talk about these characters we'll say oh this is where the desire comes from this is why

[00:34:25] this is described in this way even to the point of like sauron describing himself as sauron

[00:34:30] the ring maker golem lord golem like using the language of my medic this mirror ring now give us

[00:34:36] some examples of holding power well or sharing power from hmm yeah two instances and I'll give

[00:34:46] props to gandalf and galadriel like galadriel I don't think gets enough credit um

[00:34:54] because like when she like she's like the headhandsho of lotlorian she's one of the most powerful elves

[00:35:03] of all time um and she is confronted with the ring and that that one ring

[00:35:11] that if it's destroyed her rings that keep lotlorian magical and elvis and all that

[00:35:17] those are stripped of its power so if Frodo succeeds the elves are done they have to leave middle

[00:35:23] earth and which they already kind of like that's kind of the prophecy that's the lore that's

[00:35:29] what's going to happen but it's just she's confronted with the reality that this is the time

[00:35:33] now where this might happen and so to to temper your own power and to hold your power with an

[00:35:42] open hand rather than like gore bore me or would crack grasp the ring and even Frodo those those

[00:35:48] scenes like you clasp it you hold on to it you check for it in your pocket and galadriel almost

[00:35:53] has it in her grid I'll make she could take it as she wants to I mean and she holds that power

[00:35:58] loosely and even gives it away like giving Frodo advice and then giving them gifts on their way like

[00:36:05] go succeed in this power and in doing so like I have to move I have to leave I have to leave

[00:36:11] everything I've known and it's this magical place I have to it's going to just become a forest

[00:36:16] you know lotlorian in the fourth age would just be you know a wooded forest it wouldn't be magical

[00:36:23] it wouldn't be all that um not that it's bad it's just the the elven lore and the elven magic would

[00:36:29] diminish now kind of bringing this bridging I guess from middle earth to our current reality that

[00:36:37] we somehow live in which oftentimes it does feel like a poorly written novel um definitely a b a

[00:36:44] b level which is what I always try to do in the books I always try to make it okay well so what

[00:36:48] so we're talking about you know this pull for power this desire for it which

[00:36:55] leads towards destruction what is what is the antidote for that what is the correct way of walking

[00:37:01] this out I think well a theme in the wisdom of hobbits I talk about is like the balance of all

[00:37:07] this kind of stuff and I bring that sort of theme into this book as well and it's not like like I

[00:37:15] I model the shire living a little more literal than people like we have a little farm and

[00:37:22] I you know I bring my dog we play in the mud I plan you know I'm nerd out on farming um so I take

[00:37:28] it more literally but you can have that sort of like posture in wherever you're at um the point

[00:37:36] of like the shire living when I talk about is more about like helping your neighbor and being

[00:37:45] a good steward of where you are not viewing everything you have is like something that you own

[00:37:51] like a power over hobbits view it more as like um you're a steward of it you're a caretaker of it

[00:37:59] so just viewing everything that's in your possession as that um that's going to go a long ways

[00:38:06] in how you view power how you view power dynamics how you view relationships um I think the fellowship

[00:38:15] the story of the fellowship gives us a lot of um positive mimetic um instances that I talk I talk

[00:38:23] about all and why to spend a whole chapter talking about um about those relationships and even

[00:38:29] even when they mess up they're not perfect like boormeers a part of that he tries to take the ring

[00:38:35] from proto but but does find redemption um you know unfortunately as he's dying um but you know so

[00:38:44] there are there are instances of positive magnesium all throughout there um

[00:38:49] samwise is a great example of that although he like all characters is flawed um I think perhaps maybe

[00:38:57] golem um he certainly doesn't find redemption apart because of the way samwise maybe treats him

[00:39:06] not that he would have anyway but um but again we have as picture of these really flawed characters

[00:39:12] like we all are as humans and yet they're they're championed in very real ways it's not like

[00:39:22] it's not like token gives us these mannequin reductive good guys and bad guys and I think that's

[00:39:29] what sticks with us is that wow in spite of these flaws we still resonate with a lot of them

[00:39:34] we can still find redemption we can still find value and meaning and friendship and love and all those

[00:39:39] things I like that because yeah a lot of what you deal with too the positive aspects in the book

[00:39:44] kind of that move from me to we and and having conscious desire what is explain what that looks

[00:39:52] like more like having a conscious desire which is the positive one yeah I think it just like we're

[00:39:59] just more conscious we're aware um about our propensity to scapegoat like in christianese because

[00:40:08] Gerard both Gerard and Tolkien were Catholic if you want to put it in christianese it's like having

[00:40:14] a posture of repentance like you're always changing your mind and if it was through the lens of

[00:40:19] a medic theory I'm always changing my mind about where I'm being led toward gossiping or towards

[00:40:25] scapegoating or creating another like I have to find out ways to critique power systems the powers

[00:40:32] and principalities to use Paul's language without so with trump like with Donald Trump like how do

[00:40:38] I critique the terrible ideas he has and just unfitness someone in a leadership role would be

[00:40:46] when he when someone like without scapegoating and that's if that's it's a tight rope sometimes

[00:40:52] because it's really easy just to go on autopilot and scapegoat rather than well we still need to

[00:40:58] talk about the systems that put someone like that in place like a healthy a healthy culture doesn't

[00:41:03] even have a Donald Trump um in power so so always keeping that in mind okay so focus on the systems

[00:41:10] focus on um real solutions because just demonizing others isn't going to fix anything like one of

[00:41:18] the dumbest things that I heard said and one of those telling though was um if we I heard the 2015

[00:41:24] Republican like head one of the head of Republican national convention said if we just get rid of

[00:41:29] Donald Trump the public party would be fine it's like no no because no like you can't just get rid

[00:41:35] of something that is it's like it doesn't come out of a vacuum right it's it doesn't come out it

[00:41:41] like it comes out of a context and so we're all in this context and we're all in this

[00:41:47] interconnectedness and it's scary because in America we have this um idol called like individuals

[00:41:55] and I call it an idol because we all think of ourselves as like an island and we're not

[00:42:00] and so that's another part of this is I have to think of myself as totally interconnected

[00:42:04] from you I'm no I'm nothing if not my relationships I'm only like a

[00:42:10] conglomeration of all the different webs of relationships that I have

[00:42:15] nope and that's what makes up me so I'm I'm individual in that way but I'm also interdivitual

[00:42:22] how was it how was it shifted the way you lived

[00:42:25] kind of embracing that

[00:42:26] I mean I'm I'm more empathetic these days I'm more

[00:42:35] try to be aware of the fact that because I'm also a very my epistemology also starts first person

[00:42:45] experience so I try to be very aware of the fact that I conclude the things I conclude in part

[00:42:54] because of my first person experiences and other people have experienced life a lot differently

[00:42:57] than me so not only am I interconnected with them but I also have no idea what they've experienced

[00:43:04] from their first person lens so I think all of that information and experience has caused me

[00:43:12] to be slower to judgments slower to ridicule and again more focused on

[00:43:19] if we have so many problems and so many people that have terrible ideas in America

[00:43:25] we have to really talk about the systems that lead to that and so that becomes my focus I'm

[00:43:30] less interested in like owning someone on the internet I'm less focused on defending my personal

[00:43:37] beliefs about where we go when we die like I don't care about that you can believe I go to hell

[00:43:42] I don't care any longer that's fine um I'm hearing I'm I'm here to actually make just like

[00:43:48] like I want to I'm less about the ivory tower ideas and more on like the practical day-to-day how do

[00:43:54] people get how do people get more affordable food and housing and how do we have less people

[00:44:01] on the streets and less people addicted to drugs and how do we have better relationships with our

[00:44:06] kids and our families and our neighbors if those are that's what I mean I know it's weird to talk

[00:44:13] about that when we I wrote a book about hobbits and orcs

[00:44:17] no but what I find that's the beauty of what you're doing because I think you're pulling out

[00:44:20] these things in it but it also is it for me when I was reading and I felt challenged as well

[00:44:25] um to be able to dip into those ideas of you know in this you know what is fighting the good fight

[00:44:31] look like you know in our world today much like it was in uh Tolkien's universe yeah and

[00:44:39] and I don't know where I heard it I've heard it multiple times like I think we grow

[00:44:44] the most from like literature and fiction like we empathize with characters I mean I can write a

[00:44:49] non-fiction book about why empathy matters or you can read a novel and I guarantee you'll get

[00:44:56] you'll have way you'll experience way more empathy from reading the novel because maybe the

[00:45:01] characters not like you maybe the character's gay and you don't like gay people but you resonate with

[00:45:05] this character and you finally let your guard down you're like oh my god their people just like me

[00:45:11] you know it's like yeah so read novels read literature and I think there's studies that show that

[00:45:17] we do have a lot more empathy when we start reading more novels more character driven literature

[00:45:23] and Tolkien is probably one of the greatest so what you're actually telling us is read more books

[00:45:29] instead of banning and burning them is that kind of the direction man yeah what good is that I mean

[00:45:37] it's it's the most childish thing ever which I guess it's so much you back into that yes

[00:45:42] I might as well take a book out in the backyard and just hit it with a stick which I mean

[00:45:46] that's what's going on it's perfect finest right there like oh if we only burn this it's going on oh

[00:45:51] oh yeah like skate like we are burning an inanimate object as if as if it's gonna well for one

[00:45:58] if as if it's gonna accomplish anything like I wish right we can conserve it as would burn my

[00:46:04] theology books and do it on the internet and put it on social media and please share and like and

[00:46:08] subscribe like because I'll be happy to follow that up with a link of where you can buy it and

[00:46:14] I guarantee I'll sell a lot of books so yeah and by all means burn away I mean if this is an

[00:46:19] advertisement for those folks math books are fantastic kindling I mean it's you just have to buy them

[00:46:27] all at paperback or hardback yeah paperback not Kindle you're gonna spend a lot of money

[00:46:32] no kindling not Kindle but yeah hey nice okay all right my last question for this

[00:46:40] for you I'm gathering from this book map that you would identify as a hobbit albeit a freakishly

[00:46:50] tall one if that's fair to say a freakishly tall non-Harry-footed hog there have been like you know

[00:46:58] have you ever thought about where they take some of the hair on one part like how they

[00:47:03] graph it thank you grafting your feet complete the look I'll run it by my wife and see

[00:47:10] she's like yes you were initially it's a soft no for now but you know I like that you're keeping it open

[00:47:16] I'm an open-minded book okay so we've already pitched an old you as a hobbit but

[00:47:23] I was thinking of your partner in crime Keith Giles your business partner where would

[00:47:31] you put him what character do you think he's that's a good little earth is he like a bombadill is he

[00:47:39] been around since before before everything on earth yeah that would be the old man Giles that'd

[00:47:46] be a good one years old as bombadill but that's that's to give I mean Keith is interesting he's

[00:47:53] unique I don't think he's quite as inomatic as Tom Bombadill like Keith is a human we can point

[00:48:01] to Keith Tom Bombadill is his own reference point so he's a unique sort of like debates and arguments

[00:48:08] have raged on forever who Tom Bombadill is what Tom Bombadill is and to quote Tom Bombad or to

[00:48:14] quote Goldberry Tom Bombadill is Tom Bombadill like he is like it's kind of like I am that I am

[00:48:19] I love Keith I don't think I but well Keith would argue that he we all are the great I am so um

[00:48:25] oh who would Keith be how about I would say he would be a decent gimli I don't know why yet

[00:48:33] but that's the first person that comes to mind I mean I imagine Keith with a fiery red beard and he

[00:48:37] looks fantastic with that but I know Keith is silver fox white so we can get him to grow and

[00:48:43] he's got Keith is short in stature I mean there there've been jokes made about when I when

[00:48:49] Jamal and Keith and I used to do the live heritage capyard it would be like tree beard and the two

[00:48:55] hobbits or like one of a nephilim amongst humans so Keith is short in stature though I don't think

[00:49:01] he's as short as a hob so I will go gimli okay fair enough fair enough now

[00:49:09] do you have a third book in mind here in this series are you gonna keep going

[00:49:14] I am I'm gonna complete I have a third and a fourth Ag well I have a third which is a collected

[00:49:19] series of letters so I I included 33 letters and you're not a part of it but you're welcome to

[00:49:26] write me a question no I still have room I would love if you could ask me a question that I can

[00:49:32] include so 33 letters about Tolkien or our world and the interconnectedness of it all um 33 because

[00:49:41] that's the coming of age of a hobbit and I wanted to include other people as a part of the book

[00:49:46] so I do have a special gift for you if you're and if every year you listeners have a profound

[00:49:51] question they want to be a part of it I do have a couple spaces open so yeah it's going to be

[00:49:56] a collection of letters everything from like free will to where hobbits go after they die to

[00:50:05] nature and ecology and philosophy and the theology of the god figure of middle earth and

[00:50:12] everything in the church okay so you're just looking for extra good questions or additional extra

[00:50:17] good questions for your yeah I've gotten like 20 so far some 20 some aga so and it doesn't have to be

[00:50:24] super profound don't over think it like I've had people drop off I can't think of the greatest question

[00:50:27] in the world I'm like sometimes just a simple one I can you ask me a simple question I guarantee

[00:50:31] I can write a couple pages about middle earth about it I'm a nerd dude I'm full in like I said the

[00:50:36] slippery slope has led all the way to you know name your middle earth location to fill in the

[00:50:43] analogy that you would be better doing that's the I so I'll leave that part to you instead of me trying

[00:50:49] well the book is it is a great read and I just I love the melding of two worlds and also the idea

[00:50:56] that it's expanding our own in the process through how we look at ourselves and how we look at the world

[00:51:01] around us the book mnemetic theory in middle earth or mnemetic theory middle earth untangling desire

[00:51:07] in tokens legendarium by Matt de Stefano Matt thank you so much for your time today

[00:51:14] thank you we'll chat soon and take take care be well and all you lovely listeners thanks for

[00:51:19] supporting this guy hey wasn't that fun that was fun that was fun you know what you should also do

[00:51:25] if you think this is fun you should go and check out his book because it is as good as I say it is

[00:51:31] and it is one of those things that gerards idea of mnemesis is something that can continue to speak

[00:51:39] to our fractured reality culture whatever you want to call it but we need more of this we need

[00:51:48] more of this and so much thanks to Matt for being on the show this hour and before I send you off just

[00:51:53] a reminder to share the show subscribe give snarky fathor view over on apple podcast it helps

[00:51:58] to get the word out to new listeners i want to thank you for being a part of this show week after

[00:52:04] week month after month year after year I appreciate you all and as I send you out into this wild wide world

[00:52:13] and send you out the holiest amount of grace and peace and snark

[00:52:19] i'm out of here peace be with you

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