The Quantum Teachings of Jesus with Keith Giles

[00:00:00] This choircast podcast is brought to you in part by the liminal living podcast

[00:00:04] LIMINAL

[00:00:05] The word a thousand miles wide but small enough to fit into the present moment

[00:00:09] It describes an in-between place

[00:00:11] We live most of our lives within this space

[00:00:14] Not quite ever arriving at our idealistic final destination

[00:00:17] We spend so much of our energies on our best impersonation of who we wish we were

[00:00:21] Until we can't

[00:00:22] But in sneaks a dark night of the soul

[00:00:24] Or perhaps a mystical experience

[00:00:26] Our way of being has an error loop introduced

[00:00:29] Today we call that deconstruction

[00:00:31] Welcome to the liminal living podcast

[00:00:33] Where we teach you how to be here

[00:00:35] How to traverse these spaces

[00:00:36] And where we can go if we remain humble, open and honest

[00:00:45] It's time for another round of Snarky Faith with your host

[00:00:49] Stuart Delony

[00:00:50] This is a space where we irreverently wrestle through life, culture and spirituality

[00:00:55] All with our heads in the clouds

[00:00:57] Our tongues in our cheeks

[00:00:59] Our hearts in our sleeves

[00:01:00] And our feet on the ground

[00:01:02] At Snarky Faith the questions or even the answers

[00:01:05] Are never the point

[00:01:06] It's all about the conversation

[00:01:08] So here's your host

[00:01:09] Stuart Delony

[00:01:13] Welcome back to Snarky Faith

[00:01:15] I'm Stuart Delony

[00:01:16] Your guide through the wilderness of spiritually disenfranchised radio

[00:01:21] Had enough of the insanity and Christianity?

[00:01:24] Well, you've come to the right place

[00:01:26] We're here on a quest for a sane, grounded faith

[00:01:29] That aims to make the world better in real tangible ways

[00:01:32] We're not afraid to call out the religious BS

[00:01:35] Or to look for better pathways forward

[00:01:37] If your conversations about faith require a heavy dose of

[00:01:41] Sarcasm

[00:01:42] And even a bit of this

[00:01:44] Then welcome home

[00:01:45] You can find this and all past episodes at SnarkyFaith.com

[00:01:50] Or wherever else you listen to podcasts

[00:01:52] We're here, we're there

[00:01:54] We're practically everywhere

[00:01:56] Just look for Snarky Faith

[00:01:59] Previously on Snarky Faith

[00:02:01] Money ain't your problem

[00:02:03] Management is

[00:02:04] Tithing and offering is God's management training program for mankind

[00:02:09] Oh preach, preach, preach, sister

[00:02:12] You gotta love a good tithing sermon

[00:02:14] That really just puts the screws on the fact that

[00:02:17] Hey, the reason you all don't have money

[00:02:19] Is because you aren't giving us enough money

[00:02:22] That doesn't really seem like it makes any sense

[00:02:25] Like even in the quantum realm

[00:02:27] It makes no sense

[00:02:29] But hey, we actually will be talking about the quantum sayings of Jesus

[00:02:34] With Keith Giles later in the show today

[00:02:36] We're going to be talking about the Gospel of Thomas within that

[00:02:39] But before we get to that

[00:02:41] I need to address something

[00:02:43] May is Mental Health Awareness Month

[00:02:47] And you know

[00:02:49] You know one sphere of the world that does an awful job

[00:02:53] With mental health in general

[00:02:55] And being able to help people with that

[00:02:58] Yeah, yeah

[00:02:59] Places of faith, churches, right? Right? Right?

[00:03:02] But no, we don't talk about this

[00:03:04] Because this is a spiritual issue

[00:03:06] It's a spiritual issue

[00:03:08] But it really isn't

[00:03:10] It really isn't at all

[00:03:13] So why do I bring this up?

[00:03:16] Yes, it's Mental Health Awareness Month

[00:03:18] But let's get real

[00:03:20] Because awareness is really just the tip of the iceberg

[00:03:25] Now I've had some

[00:03:28] I have faced some harsh realities lately

[00:03:32] A couple of close friends have lost their battles with mental health

[00:03:37] It's been really, really painful

[00:03:39] This is

[00:03:41] Yeah, I think it's in four months

[00:03:42] I've had two people that I knew very, very well that took their lives

[00:03:48] And this got me thinking about the larger conversation

[00:03:54] Or really just

[00:03:57] Like lack there of a larger conversation

[00:03:59] In many of our churches and faith circles today

[00:04:03] And how are we really handling mental health crisis in the pews?

[00:04:08] Like, are we doing enough?

[00:04:12] Now if you've ever been told to just pray away

[00:04:16] Your depression or anxiety

[00:04:18] You know exactly what I'm talking about

[00:04:21] This isn't helpful

[00:04:23] It's dangerous

[00:04:25] It's like telling someone with a broken arm to just

[00:04:29] Wave it around until it feels better

[00:04:32] Prayer is powerful, yes

[00:04:33] But mental illness often requires professional intervention

[00:04:41] I speak as a person who has struggled with anxiety and depression my entire life

[00:04:46] This is not something that pastors

[00:04:50] Are equipped to be able to handle

[00:04:54] Because there's this whole idea that like a semester of counseling at a seminary

[00:04:58] Will turn pastors into therapists

[00:05:01] Like come on

[00:05:03] That's not just oversimplified

[00:05:05] It's just damn irresponsible

[00:05:08] Would you trust somebody who took a first aid course once on performing?

[00:05:13] I don't know would

[00:05:14] Open heart surgery

[00:05:16] Yeah, I didn't think so

[00:05:18] I didn't think so at all

[00:05:19] I've been through seminary

[00:05:21] And yes

[00:05:22] It's nice to have a class on counseling and understanding

[00:05:26] Being able to listen and help others

[00:05:29] That is great

[00:05:31] But a therapist it does not make you

[00:05:35] And if you act like it does

[00:05:36] That is just the hubris of the pulpit in action

[00:05:43] So here we are

[00:05:46] With people struggling silently sitting in church pews

[00:05:49] Every Sunday carrying burdens that go far beyond

[00:05:52] Anything a quick prayer

[00:05:55] Or a pastoral pat on the back could ever heal

[00:06:00] It's a silent epidemic

[00:06:04] And if people think that churches

[00:06:09] Are there to care for the flock

[00:06:12] They're not really

[00:06:14] And if they think they are

[00:06:15] They're really usually ill-equipped

[00:06:22] Something I've been trying to process through

[00:06:24] Just weirdness and grief

[00:06:31] That we need to turn the tables on this idea

[00:06:35] It's not enough to just talk about mental health

[00:06:37] Once a year when the calendar tells us to

[00:06:40] But what if our spaces of community and faith were

[00:06:45] As dedicated to mental wellness as they are to spiritual growth

[00:06:50] Whoa, what a thought!

[00:06:51] I know

[00:06:53] I can imagine a place where it's not

[00:06:55] Only safe to speak about your mental health and your trauma

[00:06:58] But it's a space where you can also be encouraged to heal

[00:07:08] And really what this means

[00:07:09] Especially, especially, especially, especially

[00:07:13] In an institutionalized church setting

[00:07:15] People need to bring professionals in

[00:07:19] Can pastors play a crucial role in spiritual lives?

[00:07:22] Sure!

[00:07:23] But they are not mental health professionals

[00:07:28] They're not the ones that are equipped

[00:07:31] To guide people through trauma and pain and suffering

[00:07:37] In their own moments of darkness

[00:07:42] I mean, so why not?

[00:07:46] Why don't more churches have therapists on staff?

[00:07:52] Like we expect the pastor because he's the guy that knows everything

[00:07:54] He's the one!

[00:07:56] He's the one!

[00:08:00] But I know, I know

[00:08:01] Most of this is going to be falling on deaf ears

[00:08:03] Because I know the churches really just don't care about this kind of stuff

[00:08:06] And we get into this mode where you're just like, yes, pray the trauma away

[00:08:09] And it does not work

[00:08:12] As a person who has spent time in therapy

[00:08:18] Praying it away does not fix it

[00:08:31] But well, how can we fix this?

[00:08:32] What can we do to fix this?

[00:08:36] Well, I think the biggest thing is to start beginning to breaking the stigma of this

[00:08:41] I mean, it's 2024 for God's sakes

[00:08:43] And we're still whispering about mental health issues in Christian circles

[00:08:49] Like there's some sort of medieval taboo

[00:08:54] But Jesus taught us anything

[00:08:56] It's that we should be bearing one another's burdens

[00:09:00] Not adding to them and or cloaking them in shame

[00:09:07] So as we make our way through mental health awareness month

[00:09:11] I think we need to make a decision, you know, to be aware of what's happening

[00:09:17] But to get actively involved in helping others

[00:09:21] I mean, awareness is beautiful

[00:09:23] It's beautiful

[00:09:26] But awareness without action

[00:09:29] And what is that?

[00:09:31] Just a tweet?

[00:09:33] Or it's not tweets anymore?

[00:09:34] I don't know. What is it, an X?

[00:09:35] It's just stupid and a whole other conversation

[00:09:39] But for those of us that try to walk after the ways of Christ

[00:09:50] Is it a time for us to demand more

[00:09:53] Of leaders and our communities and of ourselves?

[00:09:56] Because mental health isn't anything that's seasonal

[00:10:01] It's a human issue

[00:10:04] And it's time that we treat it with compassion and seriousness

[00:10:08] And dedication that it deserves

[00:10:14] Because guess what?

[00:10:14] This is snarky faith.

[00:10:15] I can't get too sappy here

[00:10:17] I can't get too emotional with this

[00:10:19] But we need to be able to take conversations out of the shadows and bring them into the light

[00:10:24] Because, because, because

[00:10:28] And don't worry, don't worry

[00:10:30] You're worrying I was going to be sincere for too long

[00:10:32] You're listening to a show called Snarky Faith For God's sakes

[00:10:37] Because I say things like this

[00:10:39] Because there are leaders, pastors, prophets, grifters

[00:10:46] People and authority

[00:10:49] That are unqualified to spout this shit

[00:10:54] Which I'll give you an example

[00:10:56] Because this kind of stuff is unhelpful

[00:10:59] This kind of stuff leans to that

[00:11:02] Just pray it away

[00:11:04] And it'll be fine

[00:11:06] And this is a perfect example from one of the perfect assholes of the Christian faith

[00:11:14] John F. N. McArthur

[00:11:19] Hey, he's written lots of books

[00:11:20] He said lots of horrible mean things

[00:11:23] Kind of looks like the emperor Palpatine from Star Wars

[00:11:27] He's that kind of a warm and fuzzy guy

[00:11:31] And here he is giving his take on mental health

[00:11:36] And I know it's going to be easy to go, oh yeah, it's John McArthur being an asshole

[00:11:40] Because that's, you know, it's what he does

[00:11:42] He breathes and he's an asshole

[00:11:45] And that's just part of his nature

[00:11:48] But, but not just to look at this for the abject

[00:11:54] Awfulness and, and inane stupidity

[00:11:58] Of the words that he's saying

[00:12:00] But think of this from a position of a person

[00:12:04] That has power over churches

[00:12:07] Over other pastors

[00:12:09] Where his words matter

[00:12:12] And think about mental health awareness month

[00:12:15] When you listen to this son of a bitch

[00:12:19] There's no such thing as PTSD

[00:12:21] There's no such thing as OCD

[00:12:23] There's no such thing as ADHD

[00:12:27] Those, those are noble lies

[00:12:33] To basically give the excuse

[00:12:40] To, in the end of the day to medicate people

[00:12:46] And big farmers in charge of a lot of that

[00:12:48] You know, that's kind of, I don't know if this is just conspiratorial or gaslighting that we have going on here

[00:12:54] But the one thing we can say collectively that McArthur is doing

[00:12:58] Is he is speaking in a very uneducated manner

[00:13:01] Meaning that, that he has no idea what he is flipping talking about in this

[00:13:08] At all, at all

[00:13:10] He has no context, no idea

[00:13:12] Because he thinks the bible has the answers to things that are more complicated than folks

[00:13:17] During the bible times even could conceive of

[00:13:22] But have no fear

[00:13:23] He's gonna break it down so you can understand his truth to this situation

[00:13:29] And his truth really just sounds like an old dude that watched us too much Fox News

[00:13:34] If you, if you, if you understand take PTSD for example

[00:13:39] Oh please enlighten us on this

[00:13:41] What that really is is grief

[00:13:43] You are fighting a war, you lost your buddies

[00:13:47] You have a certain amount of survival guilt because you made it back they didn't

[00:13:52] How do you deal with grief?

[00:13:53] Grief is a real thing

[00:13:55] Yeah, okay boomer

[00:13:57] But grief is part of life

[00:13:59] What is this like Snapple Cap wisdom?

[00:14:01] And if you can't navigate grief, you can't live life

[00:14:06] It's it's almost as if he's having a new thought in his old decrepit brain there

[00:14:14] Yeah grief, grief can be a big deal but grief is not PTSD

[00:14:20] Grief is grief trauma is trauma

[00:14:23] But you know, but you know

[00:14:27] This old son of a bitch has got it figured out

[00:14:29] But if you clinically define that

[00:14:34] You can give him a pill a series of medications

[00:14:38] And they end up in LA homeless on the sidewalk

[00:14:41] Such nuanced gravitas from such an empty soul of a human

[00:14:48] I just love people that have had platforms for a long time and feel like that those platforms can

[00:14:57] Give them the wisdom to speak on a myriad of topics that they are

[00:15:04] woefully woefully

[00:15:08] Unable to speak on

[00:15:12] Now I'm sure there's probably MacArthur book out there on mental health or trauma or either way

[00:15:17] I mean it's it's garbage, but you know

[00:15:20] That's most of the books that he's written about the way that he reads scripture from a misogynistic

[00:15:26] bigoted hateful standpoint and

[00:15:29] This is another form of that that vitriol and hatred. I feel like that he rolls with

[00:15:34] Hey, you out there. You're in pain

[00:15:38] No, you're not you don't know pain bitch

[00:15:42] You've never been part of my congregation

[00:15:47] Well, all right, it feels like we need a little bit of a palette cleanser before we get to the

[00:15:53] The famous the wise

[00:15:56] Is the bearded short Keith Giles will be getting to Keith Giles and then but before we get there

[00:16:05] We've got to get to and we've got to get through

[00:16:09] The Christian crazy of the week. Here we go

[00:16:15] If loving the lord is wrong, I don't want to be right

[00:16:19] Lord hemorrhage the lord is my shepherd. He'd know what I want

[00:16:26] Well in this episode's Christian crazy what we're gonna do here it's gonna be short it's gonna be brief but oh

[00:16:34] Is it shocked full of the world's?

[00:16:38] tiniest violins

[00:16:40] I know I know

[00:16:42] Because most people don't understand how difficult it is to be a pastor how how

[00:16:49] Hard it is to be a prophet. It's it's not what you

[00:16:54] Normies think it is right, you know no on the platform we deal with stuff

[00:17:01] You guys don't wouldn't understand. Yeah, just wouldn't

[00:17:05] Just because you know

[00:17:07] We're God's chosen and you're not

[00:17:10] so let's listen to some of the

[00:17:13] Bitchiest holy rollers and first off in that category. We've got

[00:17:18] Jerry

[00:17:19] Seville jerry is part of the ministry known as kenneth copeland's

[00:17:24] grifter circle jerk

[00:17:26] And jerry just wants you to know some things because sometimes he gets a little criticism coming his way

[00:17:33] Because of the bling

[00:17:36] Jerry's gonna tell you that you don't know

[00:17:41] So serve it up jerry hot on a plate. We're ready for it

[00:17:45] You know, I'm amazed at the people christian people that fuss over god prospering people

[00:17:53] I couldn't do what I do worldwide

[00:17:56] If I wasn't prospering brother copeland gave you reports this morning

[00:18:00] He could not do what he does what this ministry does worldwide

[00:18:06] broke

[00:18:08] That's the dumbest thing i ever heard oof jerry bears is greasy as they come

[00:18:13] And you got to love how jerry is just trying to to speak, you know to the normal person out there, right?

[00:18:20] The normal person out there and the best way to do it and this is just why jerry is just great

[00:18:26] He's going to tell us he's gonna tell us a story about a time when he had to be around

[00:18:32] The unwashed masses

[00:18:34] That's right. The time jerry had to take

[00:18:38] A commercial airline

[00:18:43] But jerry suffers from the lord nonetheless

[00:18:46] Brother jerry tell us tell us that's like I was uh flying back my airplane was in the in the shop

[00:18:53] having some

[00:18:55] Work done on it and I flew commercial out to los angeles and on my way back

[00:19:02] Uh, i'm sitting there and people are still boarding and i'm sitting there

[00:19:06] I like the bulkhead and I like the aisle seat

[00:19:10] And a man came in

[00:19:13] Uh in the aisle of the airplane. He said brother saville

[00:19:18] I said yes, he said what happened to that val of poverty. I see you're flying in first class

[00:19:26] I said well, sir, I didn't take it

[00:19:32] It's so fun when we get to have our let them eat cake moment in ministry

[00:19:38] It it's it's really a miracle moment

[00:19:40] A vow of poverty

[00:19:44] Why would anybody take a vow of poverty?

[00:19:47] Poverty is under the curse. We've been redeemed from the curse

[00:19:51] Amen. Amen brother. Amen. Amen because really really really that is probably one of the most

[00:20:02] griftery

[00:20:04] Gaslighting sessions that we've had in recent history here in the christian crazy and you're gonna say that was disgusting steward

[00:20:13] That's just an aberration steward. He couldn't get worse steward. Well

[00:20:17] Don't you worry?

[00:20:19] Because it's going to get worse

[00:20:21] And now we've got

[00:20:23] Hank koonaman

[00:20:25] Hank koonaman here is upset

[00:20:29] he's upset

[00:20:31] because guess what

[00:20:33] Prophets don't yet enough pats on the backs

[00:20:39] Props, you know, they don't get enough credit

[00:20:44] Because they're doing the hard work of god. I mean, they're the ones that are like listening and prophesying and making shit up. It's difficult

[00:20:53] So let's let's listen

[00:20:56] To hank

[00:20:57] Being very honest and transparent here

[00:21:00] Brother Hank, you and I hate sometimes i'm just gonna say can I be extremely vulnerable?

[00:21:05] I have a 20 year track record over 20 years of prophetic words

[00:21:11] I don't know about you when I read those words my mouth drops

[00:21:15] You know why because I don't talk that way. I don't think that way

[00:21:19] But I know and I can feel god on those words

[00:21:23] And I also knew who I spend time with

[00:21:25] But what bothers me is people will discount vessels

[00:21:30] That speak for god

[00:21:32] that have a track record and act like they don't matter

[00:21:36] Ignore what they say and run towards fear

[00:21:41] And then there are things never happen all the blood moon books the y2k storing up

[00:21:46] Kids and they never get called out

[00:21:51] And the heart of god that has spoken through true throne room vessels

[00:21:57] Never get

[00:21:58] Appreciated now. I'm not listen. I said a long time ago. Listen to me. It's nothing about me

[00:22:03] Don't misunderstand that

[00:22:05] Jesus made himself of no reputation if you're gonna speak for god, you better not be about your reputation

[00:22:10] Oh, it is not about your reputation, but you're making everything about this about your reputation

[00:22:16] That's just kind of beautiful. I mean anytime anytime you've got a pastor

[00:22:20] That's got to throw down their resume

[00:22:23] Before they give you an explanation

[00:22:26] I think I think you should start questioning said pastor and I just love

[00:22:31] How hanks got to dig deep into this like oh all of these other people that thought y2k

[00:22:38] Or the end of the world was happening those people they're crazy

[00:22:44] But me but me. Oh, I

[00:22:47] You know my brand of crazy is way more relevant in these time and days

[00:22:51] I mean this is this is kind of you know the piece

[00:22:55] day

[00:22:57] Bullshit aunts that you know gift that god has given hank

[00:23:02] And it is hard and hank deserves our prayers because

[00:23:06] We don't know what it's like

[00:23:10] to be a vessel

[00:23:12] In the heavenly realms. I mean it's it's it's it's difficult. It's difficult

[00:23:19] But once you're a vessel in the hell heavenly realms, I think we step down into the earthly realms and you know

[00:23:24] A vessel's got to be filled up. And so the best way to fill up that vessel is

[00:23:29] Cold hard cash. I'm pretty sure he'll take crypto

[00:23:32] Uh and anything else you got

[00:23:34] Yeah, yep, that's griptorship 101

[00:23:39] a

[00:23:40] Pastor who is really bad at being a prophet but really good at profiting off of his

[00:23:47] Marks, I mean congregation. That's you know, how it goes. That's how it goes

[00:23:52] You've survived this long through the christian crazy well done well done

[00:23:57] And I'd promised earlier that we're going to be talking about the quantum sayings of jesus we'll be talking through

[00:24:03] The gospel of thomas what what is this? Well, we're going to hang out with keith giles and do just that

[00:24:12] So buckle up

[00:24:14] again already

[00:24:15] Because you need to put on your sam beckett hat because we're going to

[00:24:20] Have a little quantum leap

[00:24:25] With me again is keith giles who's no stranger to the show

[00:24:29] He's the author of the jesus unseries along with

[00:24:32] books like solar missy rium

[00:24:34] And solar dose

[00:24:36] Deuce dose deos

[00:24:38] Thank you. That's way better

[00:24:40] And now his new book the quantum sayings of jesus decoding the lost gospel of thomas

[00:24:45] Is coming out or it's out right now and so welcome keith. How are you doing today?

[00:24:50] Oh, i'm doing really great now that i'm talking to you steward

[00:24:55] We talk me will get you nowhere. Yes. Well

[00:24:58] Uh being being honest, I I mean, um

[00:25:01] I have a busy life and a busy schedule

[00:25:03] But these conversations are fun because I you and I've talked many times before

[00:25:07] I always enjoy our conversations. I get to talk about this topic, which i'm really interested in

[00:25:11] And um, yeah, so this is fun. Thanks so much for having me on

[00:25:15] Now I didn't mention which podcast that you're currently on because I know that's evolving and changing so

[00:25:20] Keith what podcasts are you hosting or on right now? Oh my gosh so many

[00:25:25] Um, and it's getting it's going to get quote unquote worse or better depending on your perspective

[00:25:30] So right now I do four podcasts. I guess when this by the time this comes out. Yes, I do four podcasts

[00:25:35] um, so those are heretic apiar, which I started with matthew de safano. We kind of started that together like seven or eight years ago

[00:25:43] um

[00:25:44] That is relaunching

[00:25:46] And it's uh going to go weekly or actually twice a week

[00:25:51] With a panel rotating panel of amazing guests like rain wilson john fugel saying david billy heart

[00:25:56] kevin max jennifer nap derrick web lanie grant on and on crazy crazy panel

[00:26:00] We put together of different experts and stuff. So that's going to be amazing super excited about that

[00:26:05] I do a solo podcast called second cup with keith

[00:26:08] Runs every other week. Um, I do another podcast with matthew called apostates anonymous and I also do a weekly

[00:26:15] um

[00:26:16] segment an hour long segment every week on wednesday evenings

[00:26:20] On john foogle saying serious xm radio show tell me everything along with that's called the god squad

[00:26:26] And it's a recurring section

[00:26:28] You know, uh group and it's me and dylan neighbor cruise and december rose and that's a lot of fun

[00:26:35] We kind of we kind of expose christian nationalism

[00:26:38] You know sort of people misusing the bible for their own political

[00:26:42] You know gains and things like that and uh, it's it's actually a lot of fun

[00:26:45] So yeah, that's what i'm doing. I'm very very busy. I'm either hosting something or

[00:26:51] Yeah, or i'm guessing on somebody else's thing on a regular basis

[00:26:54] In addition to shows like this

[00:26:57] Well, it kind of feels like if you throw a rock out into the podcasting world one way or another

[00:27:00] It's going to hit keep giles

[00:27:02] You know all the places you're at and there's a lot of people wanting to throw rocks just trying to hit cute

[00:27:07] Fine, so I'll have to maybe if we were to throw nerf balls out there into the world too. Yeah

[00:27:12] Yes, or or change your money. That'd be great. You know, that's true. That's true

[00:27:18] Yeah

[00:27:19] Um, so in this book keith that we're going to be talking about today the quantum sayings of jesus decoding the lost gospel of thomas

[00:27:26] What what specifically like drew you to the gospel of thomas for this exploration?

[00:27:33] Yeah, that's a great. That's a great place to start. Yeah, I'll be honest when I first the first time I read the gospel of thomas

[00:27:39] It was probably like seven or eight years ago

[00:27:41] um

[00:27:43] I was just curious about it. You can find it online and you can read the whole thing

[00:27:47] Um

[00:27:48] There's 114 sayings. So I just read through it and I just thought it was the dumbest thing I'd ever read

[00:27:53] It was I just thought this is stupid anybody that thinks this is real is you know, there there are moron

[00:27:58] It just was gobbledy good because I mean really

[00:28:01] When you just read it at face value a lot of the sayings

[00:28:06] Really, uh, they're very they're like riddles. They just don't what is he talking about right? What does this mean?

[00:28:11] And so I dismissed it. I kind of laid it aside and said yeah, that's not for me

[00:28:15] And so I thought I was done right with thomas, but somebody mailed me a book literally mailed me a copy of this book

[00:28:22] um by

[00:28:24] his name is

[00:28:26] William duffy and

[00:28:28] um

[00:28:30] And they said you should read it. So I was going to take a trip. I was flying somewhere. I packed it in my bag

[00:28:36] I'm on the plane. I read his introduction

[00:28:40] And I really credit, um, mr. Duffy for kind of helping me

[00:28:44] Rediscover the gospel thomas because in his book

[00:28:48] He sort of cracked the code

[00:28:50] He explained why it was confusing why people don't understand it

[00:28:54] he offered um a very plausible sort of framework and filter for reading it and understanding it

[00:29:01] And uh, and then he backed it up big time like this isn't just a theory like here's proof

[00:29:06] That this really is the right way to read it

[00:29:09] and then um

[00:29:11] Then as I continued to read the book and he went through the sayings

[00:29:14] It did make sense. It was like oh, wow. Wow

[00:29:18] He's right. Um thomas is seriously something to take you know take serious to look at and that that book really

[00:29:25] um is what made me want to dive deeper into the gospel of thomas

[00:29:30] And since then I actually reached out to him. I did some interviews with him

[00:29:33] Um talked him thanked him for the book we he and I talked about thomas and things like that

[00:29:37] And um, that was really cool. He provided a you know endorsement quote for for my book

[00:29:41] Which was a lot of fun. So yeah, that was the reason why I think

[00:29:45] Well, if it wasn't for whoever it was, I remember now who it was whoever sent me duffy's book

[00:29:49] Thank you. And thank you. Um, mr. Duffy for your book because uh, it helped me to see

[00:29:57] Why thomas was you know a legitimate text and something worth taking seriously

[00:30:02] I I just some of the experience too. I remember when hearing about this years back and reading it and being like, whoa

[00:30:07] Like this is interesting imagery and there's interesting sayings here

[00:30:11] But I had no idea what was kind of happening with it too

[00:30:14] And so in in us talking about the book of thomas, I think that we also and you do this in the book as well

[00:30:19] You give us like a history of

[00:30:22] Kind of the gospel of thomas and you also put it in place which I thought was super helpful for me chronologically

[00:30:28] Um, like speaking in reference to the next the rest of the new testament

[00:30:31] So can you kind of talk about like the timing and time period and all of that behind it?

[00:30:37] Yeah, and this is this is fascinating as well. Um, because again

[00:30:40] Um, duffy made me kind of like go. Oh, this is really good. But then I started digging sort of into the history

[00:30:47] um, so the scholarship behind thomas to find out like

[00:30:50] Um, who wrote this? When was it written? You know all that kind of stuff

[00:30:54] I think I think my assumption was I think like most people who kind of hold thomas at arm's length kind of skeptically

[00:31:01] uh, well thomas was written like

[00:31:03] 400 years or something later by someone totally different because most quote unquote Gnostic texts

[00:31:09] Um, that's what they are right like no this wasn't written by judeus. This wasn't written by philip

[00:31:14] This wasn't written by mary magland. These are these it's like fan fiction, right?

[00:31:19] So I just assumed that was thomas as well. Um, and then what I was very

[00:31:23] Really cool to discover and excited to discover was that um, there are a lot of scholars

[00:31:29] A lot of reasons to believe that the gospel of thomas is

[00:31:34] um

[00:31:35] That it would fall you put the dating of the writing of thomas

[00:31:40] Somewhere between the writing of the gospel of mark and the gospel of john

[00:31:43] Now that makes it a lot more legitimate

[00:31:46] Suddenly now okay. Um, this isn't something that came much much later

[00:31:50] um, it's something that when gospels were being written

[00:31:55] Um, and certainly the four that most christians hold, you know, dear

[00:31:59] thomas was around and there's also reasons to believe and I bring these out in the book

[00:32:04] um

[00:32:05] That whoever wrote the gospel of john had read thomas because it's there's there's a lot of evidence that

[00:32:12] um

[00:32:13] There seem to be specific passages of john that seem to be responding to things in the gospel of thomas

[00:32:20] And there's also, um one of my favorite kind of like aha moments was I was going through the sayings

[00:32:25] Because I came across one of the sayings in thomas

[00:32:28] That is a verbatim

[00:32:30] Something that I remember reading in the in first Corinthians

[00:32:34] From the apostle paul and when I looked up the text when paul says this he says as it is written

[00:32:41] Like he's quoting a scripture and then he quotes thomas and I was like holy moley

[00:32:46] Um, that's what really made me excited. So

[00:32:49] again when I say

[00:32:51] Um, a lot of scholars, you know would agree with that that that assessment that thomas

[00:32:56] There's good reason to believe thomas was written during between somewhere between mark and john's gospel

[00:33:03] And that there are reasons to think that you know paul was aware of it

[00:33:05] He quoted from it and things like that and early church fathers did as well

[00:33:09] Um, there are again there's because scholars don't agree on anything right there's you could find scholars that say no

[00:33:14] No, no, it's much later and I don't think this and so people disagree on things

[00:33:18] But um the more I looked into it and I present this evidence in my book

[00:33:22] I think it's compelling

[00:33:24] to uh to think that yes, I think thomas really does belong

[00:33:28] somewhere between mark and john and then

[00:33:32] um

[00:33:33] The thing I should probably clarify about thomas you sorry i'm jumping ahead. You might maybe you're gonna ask me this

[00:33:38] um

[00:33:39] But when we say when we call it the gospel of thomas technically it's not a gospel

[00:33:45] Um, I mean many people would call it a gnostic gospel and it's not gnostic either

[00:33:49] so, you know gnostic

[00:33:51] When people think of gnosticism they think of some really wackadoodle theology about like

[00:33:56] Some other demi urge god created our our planet and uh, but it's not the father of jesus and

[00:34:03] There's all these you know different spiritual beings and and anyway that when you really look at if you've ever looked at gnosticism

[00:34:09] It gets really strange and weird and thomas is not that thomas doesn't include any any teachings along those lines

[00:34:15] So it is not truly a gnostic text. I think it's considered gnostic because it was discovered

[00:34:20] Along with other gnostic texts and we can talk about that in a second

[00:34:23] But it itself it's not doesn't contain any gnostic teaching

[00:34:26] And it's not really a gospel in the sense like when we think of the gospels

[00:34:31] Usually there's a there's a story of the life of jesus. There's a birth narrative

[00:34:36] there's um, you know the

[00:34:39] Calling of the disciples

[00:34:42] You know, just there's just all these things that kind of mark out a gospel story, right? There's the rest

[00:34:47] There's a crucifixion. There's the resurrection. There's the sort of apocalyptic second coming and you you find none of that

[00:34:54] None of those things are discussed

[00:34:56] In the gospel of thomas the gospel of thomas is essentially it's really only a collection of the sayings of jesus

[00:35:04] It's 114 sayings jesus said jesus said or maybe the disciples asked and then jesus answered jesus said

[00:35:11] That's it. Half of those 114 sayings are already in our new testament gospels

[00:35:17] The other half are new

[00:35:19] and so um because of that that's another one of the reasons why

[00:35:24] Um many scholars take it seriously because you know again think of it this way if you were

[00:35:30] If you were gonna make up a gospel after matthew mark and luke and joham were already already floating around in in christianity and early church

[00:35:36] Right, everybody had these four gospels and you're like i want to write something that subverts that and kind of tells a different story, right?

[00:35:44] But you don't tell any story

[00:35:46] You just include half the sayings are already in the other gospels and you have

[00:35:49] Half of them that that aren't included and with no commentary just and jesus said blah blah blah the end

[00:35:55] Like and like as we've said most of the time people reading those sayings are coming away going. What does that mean?

[00:36:01] So that's not a really good way to sort of advance your agenda if you don't have an agenda

[00:36:07] Present and you're not arguing you're trying to make a case for anything

[00:36:10] um

[00:36:11] and so

[00:36:13] what thomas is an example of

[00:36:16] Is something called a q document

[00:36:18] and

[00:36:19] you know when

[00:36:21] You know again going back to sort of new testament scholars a lot of new testament scholars assume that

[00:36:26] When the authors of matthew and luke sat down to write their gospel

[00:36:31] They had two things they had the gospel of mark because it had come first

[00:36:35] They were they were basically borrowing from or stealing or copying from mark

[00:36:39] But matthew and luke when they quote, you know jesus sayings

[00:36:43] They quote jesus sayings exactly the same

[00:36:46] and so

[00:36:47] The the kind of the theory is well, they must have both had something called a q document in that all that means is that

[00:36:52] It was a collection of sayings of jesus that they were like they come to the part of the story and like oh jesus said hold on

[00:36:58] Let me find. Oh, let's let's use that. I'll just grab that quote

[00:37:02] And um, that was a theoretical idea for the longest time. No one had a q document

[00:37:07] We've still never found what we think is the actual q document

[00:37:10] But when thomas was uncovered in what 1946 or something like that. I have it the actual date. It was like

[00:37:18] Yeah 1945 sorry when it was when thomas was uncovered in 1945

[00:37:23] That was the first time we realized we had proof

[00:37:27] That a q type of document did exist because that's what thomas is thomas is just a collection of the sayings of jesus

[00:37:34] And so that's one of the see these are the things that make thomas

[00:37:38] Um significant that make us realize like thomas stands apart

[00:37:42] From these other

[00:37:43] Gnostic texts like gospel of mary gospel of jesus and others that they came later. They're by other authors

[00:37:48] They do have stories. They're telling a counter story to the new testament gospels

[00:37:54] Whereas that's none of those things are happening with thomas and again for the things i've said here

[00:37:59] Really good reasons to believe

[00:38:01] It belongs

[00:38:03] To be dated between the writing of the gospel of mark the writing of the gospel of john

[00:38:08] And it's something that the early apostles and christians

[00:38:11] refer to

[00:38:13] on a regular basis

[00:38:15] Now where did everything then go wrong?

[00:38:19] In this as well too for for thomas is the gospel of thomas's history how it's handled in the early church

[00:38:25] Where do things start to slide off the rails?

[00:38:28] Yeah, and that definitely seems to be something that did happen

[00:38:32] Early on because again as we said it's paul the apostle seems to be aware of it

[00:38:36] He seems to quote from it without any problem saying as it is written and quotes jesus from thomas

[00:38:42] The gospel of whoever wrote the gospel of john seems to have some issues with some things in thomas, but

[00:38:47] You know overall is affirming a lot of the same ideas

[00:38:51] That thomas is affirming

[00:38:53] Um, so yeah, what's what's the big problem? Right? What's the big beef?

[00:38:57] So it seems that historically what happened and I want to just give a shout out to elaine pagels

[00:39:03] Uh an excellent new testament scholar and historian and she has a book called beyond belief that blew my mind when I read it

[00:39:11] um

[00:39:12] She kind of lays out sort of the

[00:39:15] political kind of posturing and background that was going on the conflicts that were going on

[00:39:21] um

[00:39:22] When when this started to happen it's around the time of iranaeus

[00:39:25] And um iranaeus was an early church father if you've been studying church history, you've heard that name many times

[00:39:31] um

[00:39:32] so

[00:39:33] What elaine pagels talks about is that there was a there were

[00:39:36] Well, we really can't talk about early christianity as if it was one thing

[00:39:40] There were christianities plural rick bach barterman talks about this all the time as well

[00:39:45] um

[00:39:46] There were many many different sort of flavors and and types of christianity

[00:39:51] Another what I mean is like if you were to talk to those groups and ask them, you know, who are you they would identify and say

[00:39:56] well, i'm a christian

[00:39:58] But some of them might have views and beliefs that were slightly different than what we now consider orthodox christianity

[00:40:04] um so back

[00:40:06] back in that day

[00:40:08] when um when iranaeus was one of the church fathers and um

[00:40:12] He was surrounded by these other kinds of christianities

[00:40:15] And many of them he saw as a threat

[00:40:18] And it seems that one of the ones he felt was one of the greatest threats to his personal sort of uh influence

[00:40:25] um was a group that they're called the valentinians

[00:40:29] And they were basically they were all christians again. They called themselves christians

[00:40:33] uh valentinas himself was a bishop he was um considered at one point to be um

[00:40:39] A bishop in in his region. He was passed over for that, but you know, he was well known

[00:40:44] People quoted from him, you know, he was seen as a christian

[00:40:48] But again, he had certain things that he that he believed and that he taught and um those that followed valentinas

[00:40:55] um

[00:40:57] Really liked the gospel of thomas right they they taught a lot from thomas and from john and um

[00:41:03] And so I what elaine piggles points out is that it seems that

[00:41:08] um iranaeus really did not like

[00:41:11] valentinas and his followers and

[00:41:14] He felt that they were a threat to him

[00:41:16] Personally and to the churches that were under his care

[00:41:19] He sent letters. He told his his people don't you know, don't teach from valentinas's

[00:41:24] Um stuff don't don't listen to him

[00:41:26] But the problem was many of them were already

[00:41:29] Quoting him and using his his stuff in there

[00:41:31] So he had already lost control right and I and I think that only made him even more desperate to like kind of gain control

[00:41:37] And so I I feel like

[00:41:41] Uh, and again, this is just my not just my opinion. I think many scholars only piggles among them would say that

[00:41:47] When when iranaeus began to speak against and condemn the gospel of thomas

[00:41:52] It's not so much what thomas says as who is using it and reading it and preferring it

[00:41:58] So um, that's what it seems to be and we see that reflected as well. So clemenovic alexandria later on

[00:42:05] Um, he also condemns thomas. He's just kind of repeating what iranaeus is saying like oh, this is bad

[00:42:10] Don't read this but then ironically he'll quote from it

[00:42:13] So so it's like yeah, what so should I not read it or should I read it because you're you're quoting from it

[00:42:18] Selectively here and there um

[00:42:21] And this seems that that kind of continued up until the time around the time of constantine

[00:42:26] um

[00:42:27] And so again constantine gains power

[00:42:30] Constantine gathers, you know the council of nicaea

[00:42:33] Athanasius is one of those church bothers and Athanasius Athanasius is on team iranaeus

[00:42:38] um

[00:42:39] And with sort of the political power of rome and constantine behind the church

[00:42:45] Um, I believe this is the moment where they realize hey

[00:42:49] We can now say we can send out this letter and that's what uh, Athanasius did he sent a it's called the eastern letter

[00:42:55] He sent out this letter out to all the churches

[00:42:57] Again with the authority of rome

[00:42:59] saying um

[00:43:01] Do not use these these books anymore in your in your services in your worship times in your teaching times

[00:43:08] And thomas is one of those books

[00:43:11] Now what's fascinating about that is what that tells us is before that letter

[00:43:16] Christians everywhere were using thomas and these other books in their regular worship

[00:43:21] And they were until they were told to not do it to stop doing it

[00:43:24] Um, and so we think that that's the time it seems like that's the right it falls in the right time frame

[00:43:31] um

[00:43:32] That thomas and other books were probably burned destroyed. Um, they were lost

[00:43:38] but there was a seminary around egypt that um

[00:43:43] that

[00:43:45] Instead of burning them they put these books in a large clay jar

[00:43:50] Carried it out to the desert and buried it in the ground

[00:43:53] And it stayed there from about like three. I think it's 340 ad

[00:43:59] um

[00:44:00] And it was just accidentally discovered around 1945

[00:44:04] And uh, it was this literal time capsule of of books

[00:44:09] We had a complete copy of the gospel of thomas, which is fantastic

[00:44:13] But um some gospels we had only heard about had no copies of like the gospel of truth

[00:44:19] Uh the apocrypha of john, you know, there's many other the things that were discovered. This was at nakamati

[00:44:24] And the nakamati discovery was fantastic. It was huge and that's where we got thomas

[00:44:30] um

[00:44:30] So you think about it from 340 around 340 ad until like night

[00:44:35] Well, and they didn't get translated into english until 1959

[00:44:40] And then I think they didn't even sell the uh like a copy you could purchase like in the stores

[00:44:45] until the 60s

[00:44:47] So if you think about it, we've really only had

[00:44:50] thomas, you know since I was born kind of you know, give you an idea in my lifetime

[00:44:55] We've had access to the gospel of thomas

[00:44:58] But anyway that that that seems to be the story as to why there was opposition to thomas and again

[00:45:02] I would say not so much against what is being said in thomas as

[00:45:07] Uh opposition to the people that they didn't like or disagreed with

[00:45:12] Who championed thomas

[00:45:15] Well, you mentioned earlier too when when beginning to read and engage with this it on it's just on its face

[00:45:22] It can be very hard to understand and you said earlier that something cracked the code for you

[00:45:27] Yes, um, and when we talk about that what yeah, what shifted in you like how did you begin to see this differently?

[00:45:33] I know you mentioned a book that you'd read but yeah

[00:45:36] Like narrative wise or theme wise what switched in your head. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the short answer is

[00:45:42] Because duffy goes through a very

[00:45:44] Lengthy thing and I repeat that in my book as well because it's the it's me. It's the easiest way to explain it

[00:45:50] But the short version is that the code

[00:45:53] The thing that helps you read thomas

[00:45:55] Through the through a filter that helps make sense of it of the sayings

[00:45:59] And this is again what duffy suggests is that everything that that jesus is saying to his disciples in the gospel of thomas

[00:46:07] Is something to do with

[00:46:09] our

[00:46:10] Oneness and connection with god with the divine

[00:46:14] And also our oneness and connection with one another in humanity

[00:46:18] And so um that idea is very similar to the sort of the what quantum science is saying to us now, right?

[00:46:25] Um that even though we perceive the world in terms of separate separate objects separate people separate beings

[00:46:32] Um, that's how we see but see and perceive the world around us

[00:46:35] We know on the quantum level that that's an illusion that the reality is all of these

[00:46:40] Seemingly separate objects and people and beings and planetary everything everything we can see in the universe

[00:46:47] It's all one thing. It's all the quantum field everything is an expression of the one quantum field

[00:46:53] So it's and also quantum scientists are beginning to talk in in language that's

[00:46:58] Suggest that this quantum field is consciousness

[00:47:01] That it is a sort of the great consciousness and and I've many quotes from uh quantum physicists too have said

[00:47:08] We can no longer

[00:47:10] Describe the universe in terms of a great machine

[00:47:13] That we should uh describe it in terms of a great thought or a great consciousness

[00:47:17] And so when you when you realize that on the on that end and you see what

[00:47:21] This kind of idea of what's being said in thomas and by the way in many other

[00:47:26] mystical traditions religious traditions

[00:47:29] around the world

[00:47:31] It seems like yes, okay

[00:47:32] This this this seems like to be a really foundational idea that jesus is communicating in thomas

[00:47:37] And so when you read thomas and the sayings of jesus and thomas

[00:47:41] from this filter of through this lens of

[00:47:45] Whatever that saying means it's it's trying to he's trying to teach me something

[00:47:50] about

[00:47:51] Uh this illusion of separation

[00:47:54] And wanting me to see beyond that to the reality of oneness and connection

[00:47:58] And uh, yeah, and so and so when you read it when you read thomas from that perspective

[00:48:04] It really does kind of click. It seems to all come together

[00:48:07] Now in your mind, how does that begin to

[00:48:10] shift

[00:48:12] How we hold things in christianity if there's this oneness if there's this interconnectedness

[00:48:17] How does that begin to shift the landscape?

[00:48:20] Yeah, well, it really does and I think I was probably more open to these ideas

[00:48:27] Um at the time, you know, it just kind of coincided around the time that I read duffy's book

[00:48:32] That I wasn't closed to these ideas

[00:48:34] Mm-hmm

[00:48:35] Because be just really slightly before

[00:48:39] Coming across duffy's book

[00:48:41] Um, I was not open to this idea that christ was in everybody

[00:48:46] I was still very much embraced this idea that no no no christ is only in christians

[00:48:50] And you know christ isn't in you unless you invite christ into your heart and and christians only only ones that have christ living in them

[00:48:58] And you can even see that in my jesus son books

[00:49:00] I think the first three or four books i wrote on the jesus son series

[00:49:02] I even argue for that and then the later books that i wrote like jesus i'm forsaken

[00:49:07] And and some of the other ones i actually argue the opposite

[00:49:10] I i contradict that and say no i was wrong about that and my last book i even say i think in soledios

[00:49:15] I even say that uh, I talk about the fact that i was just wrong about that

[00:49:19] And but it took me a while as a christian to kind of get to the place where I could see

[00:49:25] That no it really was true that christ wasn't everybody and what helped me honestly was the scripture

[00:49:30] Um, what was holding me back was my dogma my my sort of conditioning

[00:49:35] Which told me that no that's not you can't be true keith. That's not possible

[00:49:39] Christ is can only be in christians which creates this sort of exclusivity

[00:49:43] For christians right only christians have christ

[00:49:46] And uh, and I debated back and forth jamal javangi was somebody that

[00:49:50] Um, I want to thank him for continuing to he was like a dog with a bone. He would not let me

[00:49:56] Give up on that argument and we went back and forth and back and forth and my friend chuck mcknight also helped me

[00:50:02] um, I think chuck was the one that finally really

[00:50:04] Really helped me kind of click

[00:50:06] I was talking to him about it kind of

[00:50:08] Kind of complaining that jamal javangi wouldn't stop arguing with me about this

[00:50:13] And uh, and chuck said something like well, you know, there is that verse that says that

[00:50:19] Christ feels everything

[00:50:22] in every way

[00:50:24] I think it's in colossians

[00:50:26] And I looked it up

[00:50:28] And I read that

[00:50:30] And everything in Ephesians it says that we are all filled with the fullness of christ

[00:50:36] And I kind of put those two ideas together and it's like

[00:50:39] If christ really

[00:50:41] Fills everything everything

[00:50:44] christ fills everything

[00:50:46] In every way not just in a certain way in every way

[00:50:50] There just is no place to make an argument to say

[00:50:53] That christ is only in christians, right? So when paul says to idol worshiping pagans and in athens in the book of acts

[00:51:00] Um, who don't even know he's talking about right? He's talking about an unknown god

[00:51:03] They they don't even know who they're talking about he just says hey this unknown god

[00:51:07] Is the one in whom you live and move and have your being?

[00:51:11] Well, wait a minute. What like I thought there was only christians

[00:51:15] So this is it's a it's a maybe a shocking

[00:51:19] Challenging idea for a lot of us who are raised as christians or evangelical christians for sure

[00:51:24] But it's not an a foreign idea to the scriptures. It's not a foreign idea to the gospel of john

[00:51:29] It's not a foreign idea to the writings of paul

[00:51:32] Um, and certainly not a foreign idea to the gospel of thomas

[00:51:36] It's just an idea that has not been emphasized

[00:51:39] Um, and again, we go back to this

[00:51:41] kind of tension between the proto orthodox christians like

[00:51:45] uh, iranaeus and tertulian and those guys

[00:51:48] up to athenaeus and other christians like valentineus and and several others

[00:51:53] Who just had a different view that they were emphasizing more of these these kind of ideas like that christ is bigger than us

[00:52:00] Christ is bigger than we can imagine

[00:52:02] The love of christ is like you know higher and wider and longer and deeper and all that and they

[00:52:07] They accepted all the same things that that the proto orthodox believe that they had this additional understanding

[00:52:13] That that christ was in everyone and we were all connected to christ and we're all therefore all connected to one another and I think

[00:52:20] um

[00:52:22] for me

[00:52:24] When that clicked when I really was able to embrace that idea that christ was

[00:52:28] You know that we were filled with the fullness of christ and that christ filled everything in every way

[00:52:33] And that there was no division or separation right of course now i'm open to this idea from that that I see in thomas

[00:52:39] um, but it also makes me realize like I

[00:52:42] This is what makes it possible

[00:52:45] For us to kind of do the things that jesus said so when jesus says

[00:52:50] Love your neighbor as yourself

[00:52:53] Well if I if I look at my neighbor and I see myself

[00:52:56] It's easy to love my neighbors myself because I see myself

[00:52:58] I see connection with myself in my neighbor or when jesus says whenever you've done to the least of these you did it to me

[00:53:04] Well, then that I can because I understand now this connection with christ

[00:53:09] And and the connection with all humanity when I see the least of these who are hungry and thirsty or in need

[00:53:15] I see christ

[00:53:16] And I see myself and it's therefore what I do to them. I do to christ whatever what I do to them

[00:53:20] I'm doing it to myself

[00:53:22] and

[00:53:24] So when jesus says love your enemies again the only way I can love my enemy truly is if when I look at my enemy

[00:53:29] I don't see my enemy. I see myself and I see christ

[00:53:33] Um, so I it just helped kind of close the loop for me on so many of the things that I feel are foundational to my christian faith

[00:53:41] That this is not a contradiction to it

[00:53:43] And if anything it makes it make more sense and it makes it it sort of allows me to see

[00:53:49] How it's possible

[00:53:51] Again, it takes this paradigm shift. Jesus always saying metanoia

[00:53:55] Change your mind thing different and this is a pretty radical metanoia, but I think it's the one metanoia. It's the one big shift

[00:54:02] Um that if we can get it

[00:54:05] I keep saying this I think it's the answer to everything right if all humanity

[00:54:10] Could wake up and realize that we are all connected to the divine and we are all connected to one another

[00:54:16] We are all absolutely

[00:54:18] brothers and sisters

[00:54:19] kindred spirits

[00:54:21] The same quantum expressions of the same quantum field. However, you want to say it

[00:54:24] Um, if we really could embrace that like

[00:54:27] I can't go to war

[00:54:29] I can't how can I go to war with somebody? That's i'm killing myself. I'm killing my

[00:54:33] You know, I'm killing christ. Um, I how could I allow poverty to take place? Well, I'm I see myself over there starving

[00:54:40] I see christ hungry

[00:54:43] You know on and on like all of those things now because I am aware of and in fully embracing this connection

[00:54:48] Of oneness with christ and with all humanity

[00:54:51] um

[00:54:53] it sort of helps kind of

[00:54:55] Awaken us to our shared humanity and our shared divinity

[00:54:59] and

[00:55:00] It has the potential really to bring

[00:55:03] The kingdom of god right what the way jesus describes the kingdom of god to earth

[00:55:07] Um where we study war no more we care for the poor the orphan the widow, you know, like these things begin to become

[00:55:14] obsolete

[00:55:16] Because we know we're no longer the kinds of people who can live that way

[00:55:20] Right the only way you can live that way is if you really do believe that you're different and separate from those other people

[00:55:25] mm-hmm

[00:55:26] No, and you put this in the book and i'm not sure if you're quoting somebody else

[00:55:29] But it is it's like that shift from us and them to just us

[00:55:33] That it's just all us and that's right. Yeah and reading through it

[00:55:37] I I I just found it a fascinating read going through it

[00:55:40] Because you take it just you take it just is it's verse by verse? I guess

[00:55:44] Yes, what they are saying verse by verse saying by saying yeah in there and and for me someone who'd read it before

[00:55:49] I just kind of dismissed it but the way you begin to unpack it. You're able to go. Oh my gosh

[00:55:55] I kind of get this now. I'm being able to see this like before it felt like

[00:56:00] oftentimes

[00:56:01] It kind of felt like in faith that it's almost like we're looking through the wrong end of a telescope

[00:56:05] Yeah, uh that we're kind of just like

[00:56:08] Microscoping everything even though I know the quantum field is very small

[00:56:10] But I think our issues and stuff I think we can tend to just zero in on stuff

[00:56:16] That separates us that we don't believe in but when we begin to expand it look at through it the right way

[00:56:21] We're able to see just a far greater field that we are connected that there is so much more

[00:56:26] To our existence than we see and messages like this. I feel like are perfect for the world that we're in today

[00:56:32] Yes, we're very fractured. Uh, we're very separated

[00:56:35] And uh, it doesn't seem to be getting any less fractured and separated

[00:56:40] Right. Yeah, and I don't agree with that and I think um, I I don't know man. It feels like

[00:56:46] We are living in the most divided fractured

[00:56:51] Time at least in my lifetime if not in history

[00:56:54] Um, you know, like everything social media politics

[00:56:59] Um

[00:57:00] Religion, you know everything is us and them and us and them and us and them and we're right and they're wrong

[00:57:06] And they're not just wrong. They're evil. They're horrible

[00:57:08] We have to get rid of them. We have to oppose them. We have to stop them and

[00:57:12] And man, this just leads us into kind of the chaos

[00:57:16] that we're experiencing now where

[00:57:18] We we've lost track of our connectivity and it's funny too like sometimes it can shock you

[00:57:25] Because again, I think again if you if you're just kind of swept up in that division that sort of us and then way up thinking

[00:57:31] And it's very easy to do that

[00:57:33] Um, just the other day I saw

[00:57:36] Uh, some kind of survey or poll that was done

[00:57:39] Of americans and it was saying like, you know, what like there's like the top 20 things

[00:57:44] That americans think are very important, right? And it was things like, you know, the right to vote freedom of speech

[00:57:51] Uh equality for everyone rights to education

[00:57:54] We know rights to food and shelter like all these simple very basic sort of humanitarian things

[00:57:59] And you ask people from all across right Christians non christians

[00:58:04] atheists, uh, you know democrats republicans every everything all across the board

[00:58:10] And there was almost like between 80 and 90 agreement on every one of those things

[00:58:15] And when I saw the graph and it was visually as a graph

[00:58:18] I looked at the graph I saw the article but when I clicked on it there was a little graph

[00:58:22] And i'm seeing all the agreement

[00:58:24] And it was like

[00:58:26] That just it was like a shock like because you just you assume that were so different you assume

[00:58:33] The feeling is we are just so polarized and divided

[00:58:37] And we are polarized and divided but not on the things that really matter

[00:58:41] Yeah

[00:58:41] Um, and so yeah, it's like there's almost nothing. There's not an equal

[00:58:46] Force or engine or power out there on a daily hourly second by second basis

[00:58:52] emphasizing our connection and and what we have in common

[00:58:57] What there is is an engine and a force and a power emphasizing every

[00:59:00] Day and minute and second how different we are

[00:59:04] And that is what kind of

[00:59:06] Perpetuates this idea this illusion

[00:59:09] Of separation that we're in and leads to all sorts of yeah division. It's not a good thing

[00:59:16] Well, I know Keith you agreed to this ahead of time. I uh, there are a 114 sayings

[00:59:22] In the book and I am going to put it in and you ready. I'm gonna give you a random number

[00:59:27] I have a random number generator and I'm gonna run it real quick on google

[00:59:31] Okay 22

[00:59:33] Okay, so I should turn to saying 22. Yeah, so read saying 22 and then give us your take on it to give people a flavor of

[00:59:40] Of what of what this book is all about too. Yes. Okay. Here we go

[00:59:44] um

[00:59:46] So this one's a little different. Uh, it has a little bit more going on than most of the things

[00:59:51] In this one it says Jesus saw normally it's the disciples asking him

[00:59:55] So that's what's different. Jesus is the one kind of that brings it up

[00:59:57] Okay, it says Jesus saw some infants who were being suckled and he said to his disciples

[01:00:02] These infants being suckled are like those who enter the kingdom

[01:00:06] They said to him shall we then become infants to enter the kingdom?

[01:00:10] And jesus said to them

[01:00:11] Now here we go

[01:00:13] When you make the two one

[01:00:15] And when you make the inside as the outside and the outside as the inside and the upper as the lower

[01:00:21] And when you make the male and the female into a single one

[01:00:25] So that the male is not male and the female is not female

[01:00:29] And when you make eyes in place of an eye and a hand in place of a hand

[01:00:32] And a foot in place of a foot an image in place of an image

[01:00:36] Then you shall enter the kingdom

[01:00:40] And that's one of those examples of us saying that you know the first time I read it

[01:00:43] I was like what nonsense. What is he talking about right?

[01:00:47] All of that just sounds ridiculous. You know, these are just ridiculous things make the inside like the outside and the

[01:00:53] Up up like the down and you know, what are you saying here? Right?

[01:00:56] Um, but again if you say okay, wait a minute whatever is being said here

[01:01:00] It's about

[01:01:01] The illusion of separation that that's not reality even though that's what we experienced and that

[01:01:08] That the reality is we are all connected to the divine

[01:01:11] And we are therefore all connected to one another

[01:01:14] So now when you read something like that, it's like, ah

[01:01:17] Yes, yeah the the concepts of inside and outside

[01:01:20] Those are illusions just as much as us and them right there is no inside and outside

[01:01:25] There's just there's there's just what is right?

[01:01:28] All things are part of the same quantum field. They're just expressions of that quantum field

[01:01:32] Um, I also think this passage is very key

[01:01:36] To the final passage

[01:01:38] Uh, the very the last thing which is saying 114 and i'm kind of giving a spoiler. I guess

[01:01:43] I don't know how far I should go but but basically the the ideas in saying 22

[01:01:48] If you really embrace and really get what he's saying

[01:01:51] Um, I'll just say this much saying 114 is what we would call one of the problematic sayings

[01:01:57] Of thomas. It's usually the one and it's the last one

[01:01:59] So you end on one that just feels like what?

[01:02:03] And it just seems like jesus takes this total turn

[01:02:06] I like this tangent like what what is he saying? What's it almost seems to undo everything he has said to that point

[01:02:13] And that happens a couple of times in thomas

[01:02:15] But my argument is that those are legitimate sayings. I will say there's some including duffy. I mentioned duffy a minute ago

[01:02:23] When duffy and I spoke

[01:02:25] In his book when he comes across these sayings that seem that jesus seems to sort of be out of character

[01:02:31] He will say well, I think this was added later by somebody else because it's not in character with jesus and the other sayings

[01:02:37] Um, I take a different view. I'm like no. I think jesus is

[01:02:41] That it's his legitimate saying it belongs in there

[01:02:45] But jesus is often responding sort of facetiously or ironically

[01:02:53] So in other words, he he's probably frustrated with the disciples, which again, they're kind of kind of clueless

[01:02:57] Even in the you know, we know this from the the new testament gospels. They no matter how many times he tells them

[01:03:01] They just never seem to get it and so that happens in thomas as well. So I think it's consistent

[01:03:06] um

[01:03:07] And so it's one of those things where they'll sometimes ask him something and he'll respond as if

[01:03:12] He's agreeing with them even though it goes against everything he said, but if you look at the answer. He gives them

[01:03:19] Um, I think again, it's sort of tongue-in-cheek

[01:03:21] It's sort of like oh, i'm going to give you the answer that you that you're expecting

[01:03:24] But if you're you pay attention everything else, I've said you'll understand what i'm really saying

[01:03:29] And I think that's what that's what's happening between saying 22

[01:03:33] And the final saying saying 114

[01:03:37] So yeah, I mean it's uh

[01:03:39] And I go you know, this is a pretty long chapter. I'm not going to kind of go into everything I talk about in this

[01:03:44] um

[01:03:45] But yeah, it ultimately

[01:03:47] The idea there in saying 22 is jesus is just pointing out to them that to enter the kingdom

[01:03:52] Enter into this reality of everything being connected

[01:03:56] um

[01:03:58] They have to reach the place where they start erasing all those

[01:04:01] Divis all those dividing lines, right? It's like the naked pastor cartoon

[01:04:05] I love that one where everyone's drawing little boxes with a giant pencil and jesus his pencil has flipped over and he's erasing all the lines

[01:04:11] Uh, now that's that that's the uh, that's the short version of how to understand saying 22

[01:04:17] Thank you. Thank you because that I feel like that gives us a good taste of

[01:04:20] Really what this book is that I found fascinating as I was going through and my last question for you

[01:04:25] This isn't necessarily uh

[01:04:28] About the book but it is kieth. Uh, I had you mentioned matt

[01:04:32] Uh your podcasting co-host

[01:04:36] Business partner, etc

[01:04:38] Matt I had matt on talking about hobbits and so I had asked him

[01:04:43] um

[01:04:44] He obviously identifies as a hobbit. I was like, but you know

[01:04:48] Who who in this narrative would where would you put keith in all of this?

[01:04:51] uh

[01:04:52] And uh, he very quickly said no tom bombadil

[01:04:56] Not at all even though that you're very old and always been around

[01:04:59] But then I think by the way, I write lyrics and I used to sing in a band

[01:05:02] So I would say maybe I am I that was my suggestion, but he kind of went through that and said more dimly

[01:05:08] Uh dwarfishness so so we're not going to get into weird Tolkien stuff

[01:05:12] Because he's he's huge by the way if you don't know this

[01:05:15] He is there's pictures of he and I standing together and it it looks comical. It's like i'm standing in a hole

[01:05:21] Yeah, when you see like matt standing full up

[01:05:23] It looks like those those old cartoons where you have like three kids with a trench coat on

[01:05:28] Yes, and one at the top. That's kind of like matt. Okay. Yes. So so

[01:05:32] I'm gonna take a different spin since that's what he gave to you

[01:05:35] Um, we all know that paul redd played ant man in a movie

[01:05:39] And one of the ant man movies called quantum mania since we're going on the quantum theme here

[01:05:44] So obviously you're more your superpowers are more writing books and of that nature, but

[01:05:49] If you're going to pigeon a hole matt

[01:05:53] put de safano into a a

[01:05:56] comic book character

[01:05:57] Hmm

[01:05:58] Give it to me

[01:06:00] Oh, so so which it's like literary payback. I guess I got it. Okay. So, um, which comic book character would matthew de safano be

[01:06:10] Oh my gosh

[01:06:12] Um

[01:06:14] I'm gonna say

[01:06:16] This is a compliment. I would I would say he's read richards from the fantastic four because he's a he's he's super genius

[01:06:23] Uh, he's a very smart guy

[01:06:25] He's very technical. He does like when it comes to choir

[01:06:28] He does all the technical stuff in the background that I hate doing I don't even want to know how to do that stuff

[01:06:33] um, and

[01:06:35] Read richards is also mr. Fantastic. He can stretch

[01:06:38] And um, I would say matthew was very flexible

[01:06:41] Okay, you're saying like you're saying physically. He's very flexible. So next time on the show

[01:06:45] I need to see him as a human pretzel or something. No, no, I don't mean physically. I mean like oh

[01:06:51] Metaphorically, you know, I mean he can he can stretch and bend and gotcha

[01:06:57] Yeah, make it nice

[01:07:00] Well, Keith Keith. Thank you for your time today

[01:07:02] The book is the quantum sayings of jesus decoding the lost gospel of thomas. It is a fantastic read

[01:07:09] Uh, key. Thank you for your time and everyone else you should check out this book. So thanks. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, thanks

[01:07:14] Let's do it

[01:07:16] Well, that was fun, wasn't it much love and thanks to keith giles and before I send you off

[01:07:22] Just a reminder to share the show subscribe and give snarky faith a review over on apple podcast

[01:07:27] It helps get the word out to our listeners

[01:07:30] And lastly, I just want to say thank you for being a part of this show

[01:07:33] Episode after episode week after week month after month. I appreciate you all for being a part of this conversation

[01:07:41] And as I release you out into this

[01:07:44] Wild wide world

[01:07:46] I send you out

[01:07:47] with the holiest amount

[01:07:49] grace

[01:07:50] and peace

[01:07:52] and snark

[01:07:54] I'm out of here

[01:07:56] peace

[01:07:57] be with you

[01:08:22] This choir cast podcast episode is brought to you by the deadly faith podcast

[01:08:25] Hey heathens i'm lacy and i'm lola and if you're deconstructing your faith and love true crime

[01:08:30] Then you need to subscribe to our show on this podcast. We explore the world where religion and crime collide

[01:08:34] We venture deep into cults serial killers and much more now

[01:08:38] This world isn't full of sunshine and rainbows, but it's a world that needs to be explored

[01:08:42] We're excited to bring truth to light

[01:08:44] So get ready for some deep dives and some funny commentary as we tell these religious true crime tales

[01:08:49] The deadly faith podcast is available wherever you listen to the podcast